my point was until you can SHOW some form of proof that isn't just typed your argument has no effect what so ever. if your so confident that a spyder can do 40 bps then show me some proof. stop typing and start showing. it is so annoying when someone with no visual proof believes anything that they say to be the truth. so in short put up or shut up.
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50bps is how fast the gun CYCLES. Given the time necessary to feed paint... 35 or so is possiable. IIRC it would take 8ms to load a ball given a properly setup warp, and paint that fit right.Originally posted by blackmag3 SHOW ME proof of ANY spyder or clone shotting at 40bps. i don't think you can do it. heck think , i KNOW you can't do it.
But that was not the point. The point is how fast the gun cycles. The quote on the page refers to worrying about yourself outrunning the gun. that's just NOT going to happen. So long as the gun is faster than you, and faster thanyou can feed paint, the number is irelevant.
The only time I talk about real world is in relation to collecting hard data. and we did. And backed up the point.all you keep doing is writing "it's the real world" or "math backs my point up". who cares? show me proof or stop typing please. find visual proof dont just type what you think is true. if a spyder can out shoot an e mag then i will willingly eat my shoes.
If you wanna define outshoot.. a spyder can be just as efficant. (Actually with the AKA kit you're talking 130 shots per ounce of co2, but it's low pressure, so I can't state anything about it's cycle speed, other than it uses the same hammer and springs) Accuracy is a matter of the barrel, not the gun. And my spyder was +-2fps. So.. I think we're talking a gun that's JUST behind the mag, and not seriously so. Again I'm still waiting on the bolt cycle time of a mag. it's some single digit number now that i think about it.....
Remember, this thread was NOT started as "the spyder is better than a mag" it was defending my 40hz+ cycle speed of the spyder.
This also does not account for time to load a paintball. Which is the OTHER major factor on the maximum fireing rate of a paintball gun "system" We have video of an emag doing 30. Given the recharge curve of the RT, it's going to be showing some dropoff at that speed. so what we're left with is a gun that SERIOUSLY outruns the gas we can feed it.To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero
Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf
"You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."
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You mean performance minus consistency, reliablility, quality of build, and being able to achieve those ROFs WITHOUT any shootdown. And the BEST customer service in the world.Originally posted by nerobro
Shartley, given that my math with the mag is correct. This places blowback spyder designs in seccond place versus a mag. I think you missed the point of the thread... it was "can the spyder do what he said" and it can.
What else this means is that it puts spyders in with the mag with world class bolt open times, so paint can feed faster.
This also puts the spyder in a funny place. Look at the cost of a spyder, versus that of a mag.
Cost vs. preformance is a scary number right now.
To me thats worth a couple of hundred bucks.
Its like comparing a Honda Civic to a corvette. Both can be made to do 12's in the 1/4 mile.
The civic will require drag slicks, a stripped interior, a motor that is difficult if not impossible to drive in everyday conditions, it will be somthing that wont pass SMOG. Will require race fuel. And won't be reilable.
The corvette is still streeetable, has better handling, has a broader powerband and overall a better car. All this done with no fuss in factory form.
Nero the recharge curve of an RT sharpens dramatically as the input pressure goes up.
If the input is high enough given the way the RT valve works it might not show shootdown until the theoretical max limit.Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags
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well hey im done reading this topic. feel free to PM me with a vid showing a spyder cycling 50bps as you say it can. until then think what you want it doesnt make it true. basically it comes down to this , you cant show me proof that your right and it hurts you to admit it. have fun in your fantasy world i'm done dwelling in it. laterComment
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it will be at least till the weekend till we can crank up the cyclying speed of the gun catching the sear, releasing it, and cycling paint.
i got a 40 hr/week job, and a night calc class right now, and i need to grab some parts from digikey for my custom board that will let me crank up the rof. i am also limited to the hours that i can be noisy in the house.
also, i do not have a webcam or a camera, (can probally get my hands on one) but answer this question blackmag3, why should i go out of my way to impress some unbeliving soul on the net, there will always be thoes, and if that is the case, what makes you so special?
let me say that i also like mags, dispite a bad expierience a while ago with one. but i put that behind me.As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide
sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)
turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)Comment
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i am sorry about any coments that are of a pointient nature, it is easy to get deffensive when everyone else seems to be agresive.As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide
sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)
turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)Comment
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sorry if i seemed mad or agressive cause that wasnt my intent. and i in no way have a problem with syders. all i am looking for is a way to see with my own two eyes to confirm wether this is right or wrong. heck man seeing is believing. all i want is ot be able to say sorry i am wrong you are right or ha im right you are wrong. i understand people are busy but please when you get the time varify this with a video and post it.Comment
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Snipped false car analogyOriginally posted by Butterfingers
You mean performance minus consistency, reliablility, quality of build, and being able to achieve those ROFs WITHOUT any shootdown. And the BEST customer service in the world.
To me thats worth a couple of hundred bucks.
Well, it is a case of you get what you pay for. But I've never had any problems with my spyder type guns. Ever. My mag however........
Shootdown is a problem with the air being supplied to the gun. give the RT reg to a spyder, and you'll see the same lack of shootdown.
why do you think I press so hard for a RT inline reg?
Well, that;s somethign I didn't think of with the RT, you also end up with a higher and higher temprature/pressure spike (bad news...) But given that issue, and given the same reg, up to the speeds we've seen mags at, the spyder would keep up.Nero the recharge curve of an RT sharpens dramatically as the input pressure goes up.
If the input is high enough given the way the RT valve works it might not show shootdown until the theoretical max limit.
Another thing to note... this WAS NOT a vs. thread untill YOU GUYS made it such. There is also a thread I started in Deep Blue hoping to have a conversation that did not take this route on.
I think this thread should be closed, it's wandered far off topic, and it's quality is decending as more people continue to equate dollar signs with preformance. Just the same as people are now calling the e-mag electropneumatic, when it's just as much a sear tripper as a e99 or dragun.
Blah, now I'm ranting.
Back to the original point. My post on PBN is correct.To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero
Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf
"You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."
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ill kiss it too cause its impossible. at 30 bps the bolt is already moving at 124mph any faster and NASA minght be looking for you.Originally posted by cphilip
If you can prove to me it will shoot a clean 40 BPS I will kiss your behind and give you half a day to draw a crowd!
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Won't a Mag's bolt travel ~200mph? If you're shooting at 300fps, then that's around 200mph right? Well, since the Mag's bolt is accelerated by the same gas pressure that accelerates the ball, then won't the bolt's peak speed be around 200mph?
Becuase of how the on/off and bolt spring work, won't the on/off close, then all the air gets dumped, and THEN the bolt spring can push the bolt back???? If so, then the bolt should be traveling the full 200mph.
If any of this is totally wrong please explain it too me. I understand that the bolt spring could possibly be slowing down the bolt for half of the bolt's forward travel, but it seems that it wouldn't be.
P.S. If the bolt is going from 0-200(or whatever)-0 in like 6ms or whatever, then what kind of G-forces is this little piece of steel being put to?Comment
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let's just say that the bolt travels 1 inchOriginally posted by BTAutoMag
ill kiss it too cause its impossible. at 30 bps the bolt is already moving at 124mph any faster and NASA minght be looking for you.
124miles/hour * 5280feet/mile * 12inches/foot * 1hour/60 minutes * 1minute/60seconds = 2182.4 inches/second
seeing the bolt travels 1 inch, the bolt would move an inch in 1/2182.4 of a second or 1 inch in .0004582111 seconds.
that just ain't rightAs society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide
sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)
turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)Comment
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204mph accualy but who's countingOriginally posted by 'Mag
Won't a Mag's bolt travel ~200mph? If you're shooting at 300fps, then that's around 200mph right? Well, since the Mag's bolt is accelerated by the same gas pressure that accelerates the ball, then won't the bolt's peak speed be around 200mph?
EDIT: that comment i made had no sence behind it...
a ball moves at 204mph assuming that the gun is at 300fps (we know thats hardly ever true because of pressure spikes and such but lets pretend it is) if the bolt itself is moving at 204mph then why would we need air... the bolt would already get the ball up to speed. all the bolt does is seal the chamber so the gas doesnt go up the feed tube. this is the opposite principle behind the EPIC... there is no bolt, only a little door that seals the chamber and the air is all that is pushing the ball.Last edited by BTAutoMag; 07-09-2002, 07:45 PM.sigpicComment
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im not sure if your math is right.... if it can do one cycle every 1/2182.4 of a second then you should be able to do 2182 bps... i dont think your counting recharge timeOriginally posted by 314159
let's just say that the bolt travels 1 inch
124miles/hour * 5280feet/mile * 12inches/foot * 1hour/60 minutes * 1minute/60seconds = 2182.4 inches/second
seeing the bolt travels 1 inch, the bolt would move an inch in 1/2182.4 of a second or 1 inch in .0004582111 seconds.
that just ain't rightsigpicComment
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Well... the mag bolt averages 18fps. or about 13 mph. not 200mph.
the spyder would be (given that the bolt's stroke is 1.187" and it takes 20ms to cycle) an average of 9.8 fps. Signifigantly slower than a mag.To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero
Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf
"You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."
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btautomag, i got that number based off of your bolt speed
either my calculation (which are shown) are wrong, or it could be the bolt speed that was given.
where did you get that number?As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide
sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)
turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)Comment
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