40 balls per second on Spyders... ?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by nerobro
I'm begining to believe 40 (the number that started this) is a LITTLE high.

I sure hope so!!!!

[the jackal]

This is just a little rant but it seems to fit here. Kingman, imo, loves to hype up their products, they even refer to the spring loaded trigger on the sprint frame as a response trigger. Don't you think that if a spyder could reliably shoot even close to 20bps that kingman would be all over that in the marketing department. Also, the sprint frame is limited to 8bps in full auto, most likely so it doesn't reach blender stage and its limited to 13bps in semi but the stupid response trigger makes that very hard to attain. I'll believe it when I see it.

[314159]

Originally posted by the jackal
Kingman, imo, loves to hype up their products, they even refer to the spring loaded trigger on the sprint frame as a response trigger.

almost all manufacturers do this, when the rt came out, smart parts started calling the trigger on their turbo shockers a reactive trigger. when the angels first came out, one of the features they listed was vacume assisted feed....

Originally posted by the jackal
Don't you think that if a spyder could reliably shoot even close to 20bps that kingman would be all over that in the marketing department. Also, the sprint frame is limited to 8bps in full auto, most likely so it doesn't reach blender stage and its limited to 13bps in semi but the stupid response trigger makes that very hard to attain. I'll believe it when I see it.

second of all, i am not using a sprint and i am not using a kingman spyder. i am using a m3 dragun frame with a old rental pirahna and m3's older non elecro dragon upper.

to cover where things are going, yes the dragon frame is limited to 20 bps, i have shot paint out of it at 20 bps, because of some issues with the used rental pirahna and it's many years of luvin, i have moved to using nerobro's dragon upper on the m3 frame. this weekend i am throwing together a new circuit board for the m3 frame to allow me to surpass 20 balls / second, actual firing speed.

[nerobro]

Um... the nubmer didn't come from kingman. It came from another conversation with someone who had some faith in the spdyer design.

[314159]

i just measured the time it takes for the dragun to make 1 full firing cycle. that is the time that it takes for the hammer to go completley forward and completley back.

and the answer is 20 milliseconds

maby we should change this threads title to 50 balls / second on spyders

[nerobro]

Now, allow me to add a little fuel to the fire. this is a fatty striker gun. So this is the SLOWEST they will cycle with stock springs in them. With a red spring and a harder valvespring, you can push the ROF higher. With a slim striker you have less mass so the bolt will travel faster as well.

I think we have a winner :-)

[Kaiser Bob]

If that is indeed the speed they travel at, (50+ bps) they should have a worse reputation then mags for chopping paint.

[314159]

lets just say that i have an idea up my sleve that is the equilivant of lvl 10 + ace for a electro blowback =]

[shartley]

[zads27]

Originally posted by 314159
i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.

other way,
the end justifies the means.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
If that is indeed the speed they travel at, (50+ bps) they should have a worse reputation then mags for chopping paint.

Not quite my friend. The reason mags were breaking paint wasn't so much chopping, but breaking the next ball in the stack. (at least this was what appeared to be the case in my gun) The spyder's bolt accelerates hard, but it's still picking up speed by the time it passed the next ball in the stack.. appearantly less speed than an automag ;-)

IIRC the bolt on the automag, when all out, can complete the cycle in 10ms (I'm doing math backwards here..... I remember hearing that the bolt and spring combination on the mag led to 100hz or so, I'm open to correction by the ones who know better) so that puts the spyder bolt moving half the speed.

Also note, the limit on the mag is the reg, not the bolt.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by shartley How about this? I love Spyders and all, but I don?t personally care if you could prove ?mathematically? that they could cycle 50,000 times per second.

This isn't math, this is real world :-)

When you can show me footage of a Spyder shooting anywhere close to what a STOCK E-Mag or RT Pro can shoot with NO shootdown, I will be more impressed.

That's the easy part. Give us a number. I've done 15 consistantly. Shootdown is a matter of the regulator. the only reg I can get my hands on that's nearly up to the task is the stab, and that'll only keep up till 20bps or so. that leaves me with running open co2... that might just do it.

show me the actual footage. Also don?t show me a totally reworked marker. Personally when something is worked over to the point that it is only the same product in NAME alone?.

If you look up in the thread, ther'es a guy who tested his pirhana, tricked out, all decked to the gills and he only got 25bps.

This gun is stock internaly. Utterly and totally stock. the only change is the trigger frame, and that doens't effect cycle speed. (every o-ring on the gun is original) In general when people tweak spyder type guns they make them worse.

And you will never convince me that ANY Spyder compares in overall quality of parts, workmanship, or reliability. This is not saying they are bad markers, because they are NOT. Like I have stated, my household has 2 of them, and they are GREAT! But it would be like going to a McLaren forum and bragging about your Honda Civic.

Car analogys don't hold up in paintball discussions. for a lot of reasons. You're also straw manning the point. The point is that the guns can cycle fast. The gun that was tested now, is 100% parts compatable with kingman, but was made in a better factory. There's a reason TK went with the regulated air chamber design, it's always cocked. Even when air pressure is low. That advantage the gun still has. IT also has the build quality and company backing it up. And probally more importantly it has the reg standing tall behind it and keeping it well fed.

And WHY are we even discussing this on AO? LOL

It's a credit to AO that it can happen here. Just don't change the point of the thread. In fact, at this point it could be closed and the point would still be made. Spyder type guns cycle at more than 40bps, and my statement on PBN stands.

[shartley]

[blackmag3]

nerobro either stop talking or SHOW ME proof of ANY spyder or clone shotting at 40bps. i don't think you can do it. heck think , i KNOW you can't do it. all you keep doing is writing "it's the real world" or "math backs my point up". who cares? show me proof or stop typing please. find visual proof dont just type what you think is true. if a spyder can out shoot an e mag then i will willingly eat my shoes.

[nerobro]

Shartley, given that my math with the mag is correct. This places blowback spyder designs in seccond place versus a mag. I think you missed the point of the thread... it was "can the spyder do what he said" and it can.

What else this means is that it puts spyders in with the mag with world class bolt open times, so paint can feed faster.

This also puts the spyder in a funny place. Look at the cost of a spyder, versus that of a mag.

Cost vs. preformance is a scary number right now.