For Those Who Couldn't Wait.....(x-mag)

[freek133]

In defence of these "kids who dont know how to wait"

Some people wanted to try out some different guns while waiting on the xmag, I mean jeeez! whats so wrong with that? Are you calling DirtyBunny a "kid who doesn't know how to wait"?

Someone said that this post was "rude and immature",

What are you basing that on, someone's patience level? That seems to be the only thing you could base it on, and if so, you dont have the right to say that... Sure its your opinion but my opinion now is that you are rude and immature for stating that, people have a right to spend their money on anything they want if they dont want to wait for an xmag.

I was enjoying seeing what some ao'ers decided to switch to in their wait for the xmag, we have been spoiled by a very reliable product that is also one of the fastest guns around (mechanical or electronic) and its neat to see what other gun we would put faith in when playing.

Whatever happened to that saying "if you dont like it, dont reply to the thread"

Many people on this forum are so freaking quick to judge, on a certain "best electro" thread, the xmag was voted number one though I doubt 90% of these people even today have shot it. And when a subject comes up that doesn't glorify AGD, you guys stomp it in the ground. If you dont like what was said in this post, keep to yourself, trust in ao'ers ability to read a sticky saying that AGD cant dish out the number of xmags the consumers would like them to.

I've been here for a decent amount of time, and have owned 3 mags... I am an AGD supporter, but frankly am disgusted with the people on these forum's attitude. This place has turned into an intellectual PBN. The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.

Help out AGD, and these forums, keep your damn holier than thou attitudes in check.

People are entitled to their opinion, and are entitled to post their opinions on a paintball related forum, all of the guys who posted in this thread were or are still AGD supporters, leave them alone for trying something new and grow up.

by no means am I talking to everyone here,

EDIT: Hitech, your cool in my book. Watching you debate with jim drew about the was boards was very cool, and even though most of the people originally debating had stopped, you stuck to your opinion until you learned what you wanted to know, great form!:)

And another guy who I forgot, Shartley, he gives his honest opinion about everything and is not one to just follow the crowd.

[Ryknow]

Originally posted by Crazy
I now shoot a timmy and will never go back =\

amen brotha'! I was on the pro-order list, but instead picked up a solid black 2k3 Lasoya Timmy.

[GT]

Originally posted by dansim


you also dont see how many angels are brought in for warranty work out of teh box, i have, and frankly if you were on another fourm "HEAVILY" populated by one group that has been established as long as this one you will see that companys should implement some quality control issues...better yet hers a buggy block of aluminum have fun

hmm I remember seeing some pics on here of miss matched anno on the modules to body. Sorry but every company has some issuses. How many angels does WDP sell in one month?

jb

[GT]

Originally posted by freek133
I am an AGD supporter, but frankly am disgusted with the people on these forum's attitude. This place has turned into an intellectual PBN.

The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.

Help out AGD, and these forums, keep your damn holier than thou attitudes in check.

AMEN,
The sad thing is, some of the poop flining comes from some of the mods . BTW my list isnt even that long but be sure to add TAG to the good guys side. anyways back to the subject.....

I am confused as to what we are actually milling out of country on the X's? It sounds to me like the body is the only thing that is done across the pond. I also believe that 'building' the product isnt where the cost is, but the actual copyright/license of the product. I thought AGD and AGDE were the same company? If not then i can bet someone is making a fat knot on the xmag design.

jb

[hitech]

Originally posted by freek133
The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.

I try to be nice, really.

[MantisMag]

manike - i knew there had to be more. that's why i threw in the ellipsis and that big MAYBE! in case anybody actually did figure that all out. HAHA! yeah right. but if they did then we can say "ok that's a bit closer. now figure this in there too."

freek and anyone else defending these threads, i don't have a problem with the fact that they're upset that the wait is so long. if i was actually going to purchase an X-mag i would be pretty upset about the wait too. however i would not be attempting to bully AGD into making more. that's just childish. make more! make more! i want mine NOW! i don't care if you can't. spend money to GET the capability. i know your profit margin isn't that big but you can sell a LOT of them. and it doesn't cost that much. i don't care what other people say it costs. it doesn't cost much. you'll make the money back fast. cause they're backordered now. yeah i know a lot of people backed out. i know that a few Xmags took a long time to sell. but i want one. i want it specially set up for me. and i want it here now. blah blah blah.

sorry this is uncharacteristically hostile for me but there's been an awful lot of whining and it's getting on my nerves. sure if i was waiting for an xmag i'd probably post about it. but the tone would be different. mine would be "i WISH they could make more of them. i WISH my xmag was here. i'll be waiting on the doorstep watching the UPS man drive by." because i can understand the reasons why they're backordered and production is slow. so any posts about speeding up production and getting an xmag quickly would be just wishful thinking.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

back in front of the polls...

-Ryan

[Marek]

Well, in keeping with the spirit of free speech, I think this thread is a waste of server space.

Honestly, don't you think that Tom Kaye took all of these things into consideration? If his company has survived and prospered this long, don't you think it's for a reason? The company makes good products and tries to please its customers.

And you know what, I agree with the people about the whining. It's sad. How can I say that, well, I just did. What is my basis? I mean c'mon, now I have to give a dissertation about why I think ppl are babies? Stop the whining; the company is trying to produce not only an advanced piece of machinery, but also continue with other projects.

If you are that hard pressed in getting a new fad, then get a matrix or get an impy or a pump gun for all I care. The fact of the matter is that you were not adament in getting an X-Mag. Does that mean all the people that bought other guns are bad or losers or whatever title you want to give?? Hell no, well, unless they start idiotic threads.

I think the worst part is that Tom Kaye reads this noise, on his own forum. There is a difference between posting your thoughts, and whats on your mind, and being blatant.

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek
Well, in keeping with the spirit of free speech, I think this thread is a waste of server space.

Honestly, don't you think that Tom Kaye took all of these things into consideration? If his company has survived and prospered this long, don't you think it's for a reason? The company makes good products and tries to please its customers.

And you know what, I agree with the people about the whining. It's sad. How can I say that, well, I just did. What is my basis? I mean c'mon, now I have to give a dissertation about why I think ppl are babies? Stop the whining; the company is trying to produce not only an advanced piece of machinery, but also continue with other projects.

If you are that hard pressed in getting a new fad, then get a matrix or get an impy or a pump gun for all I care. The fact of the matter is that you were not adament in getting an X-Mag. Does that mean all the people that bought other guns are bad or losers or whatever title you want to give?? Hell no, well, unless they start idiotic threads.

I think the worst part is that Tom Kaye reads this noise, on his own forum. There is a difference between posting your thoughts, and whats on your mind, and being blatant.

Thanks for the great post,
You are only supporting and proving the statments that freek has already said. good for you.

I am still lost, since noone hase answered my question, why milling a body takes so long.

jb

[manike]

Originally posted by gtrsi
I am confused as to what we are actually milling out of country on the X's? It sounds to me like the body is the only thing that is done across the pond.

It's only the bodies and the modules which are made in Europe. Oh and barrels. Everything else is AGD USA. Milling an X-mag body takes less time than an SFL Intimidator, or a deadly wind 'chord' body.

Originally posted by gtrsi
I also believe that 'building' the product isnt where the cost is, but the actual copyright/license of the product.

Where did you get this information? Unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions on things you don't know.

Originally posted by gtrsi
I thought AGD and AGDE were the same company?

They are not. They are affiliated and work very closely together. AGDE is owned by John and Jackie Sosta.

Originally posted by gtrsi
If not then i can bet someone is making a fat knot on the xmag design.

Again, unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions or insinuations.

[Wc Keep]

a custom angel costs $1500. some of the custom angels only have 20 produced a month. the only reason why these are more available is because the demand is lower. im not bashing these angels because i will be getting one soon, but i have seen so many more boards burned on them than i do on emags.

honestly people its worth the wait. believe me.

[GT]

Originally posted by manike

Where did you get this information? Unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions on things you don't know.

Again, unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions or insinuations.

Manike,
First, thanks for answering my questions. Second, I can make any assumption or insinuate whatever I dam will please. I am not slandering anyone person just trying to figure out what the hold up is on the xmag production. so...... back to the topic at hand

Second,
to all the folks that say I am whinning: Look if you are told by someone that a product will be ready on date X and it is not ready until date Y and then you get some lame reason like 'well if you dont like it go somewhere else' you would not question why? If you prefer to follow along in life blindly, fine with me, however I DO NOT LIVE LIKE YOU!.

It's only the bodies and the modules which are made in Europe. Oh and barrels. Everything else is AGD USA. Milling an X-mag body takes less time than an SFL Intimidator, or a deadly wind 'chord' body.

So the argument that it takes millions in equipment may or may not be true. It also doesnt sound like a time issue unless the mill that is cutting X's is also contracted for other work.

My first point,
If AGDE owns the 'right' to the xmag body then would it be safe to say that AGDE is the one 'allowing' AGD to use thier design here in the US, therefore after AGD pays AGDE for the lic/copyright of the X little profit is made by AGD? If that is true then I can understand the statement that there is little profit in the Xmag. It would be the equalivant of WGP making angels, IE wgp paying out the nose to WDP for thier design.

Second,
Whats the hold up? Is it that there is 'contracted' shop that must be used to mill this bodies? Or are there a number of other issues that keep production?


jb

Note: Thanks to Manike for the insite, Heaven forbid someone actually provide some info instead of complaining about the folks who posted in this thread.

[hitech]

Timelines

When telling the "general" public when you will be ready to ship you have two choices. One, tell them when you really think it will be ready. Maybe even let them in on why. The problem with this is that if ANYTHING goes wrong your dates slip. Since you have already told them why, might as well tell them why it slipped.

The other way to handle it is to "Manage Expectations". Give them a date you are SURE you can meet. If you're early, great. The problem with this is you risk complaining that the date it too far in the future.

Tom sometimes does one, sometimes the other. Generally, he lets us in on what it really going on. However, the more "I don't care, I'm the customer" complaints he reads the less likely we are to hear the inside scoop.

Things take time to make. Mistakes are made. Things don't always go as planned. Murphy shows up at the worst possible moment. Aren't we better off knowing what it actually happening than having our expectations properly managed?

[manike]

GTRSI,

I have a real problem with people assuming things they don't know and posting them as fact. Which is what you did. Others then pick this up and keep running with it as if it is fact which it very definitely isn't. You are wrong in what you said, and it came over as if you knew what you were talking about.

Time to put the record straight because I don't want other people taking what you said as an opinion to be fact. You appear to be trying to imply the shortage of X-mags blame lies with AGDE and it very definitely doesn't. There wouldn't be any X-mags at all without AGDE. If AGDE decided to stop right now but let AGD continue with the X-mag, AGD wouldn't be able to offer you the X-mag at the current price.

The cost of the body is not in copyright to AGDE.

There is no 'one shop' contracted to do the milling.

AGDE would be very happy to get someone else to do it I believe. They never wanted to do production they just wanted to do R&D with their mill. Last I heard they would be very happy if Tom could get a shop to make them in the USA.

Yes there is other work to be done on AGDE's mill.

X-mag bodies are made by AGDE in Europe, because that is currently the cheapest place to get them made. And that's the bottom line. You can't get the numbers made (and that are demanded) anywhere else at the same or for less. SO what choices are there?

X-mag barrels are made in Europe because again it is the most cost effective way to do it.

AGDE aren't stopping X-mags being made anywhere else.

They aren't charging through their teeth for AGD to use the X-mag design.

They aren't limiting the numbers being made other than because there is physically no way of making more on their mill.

To get more made, more investment has to be made, and there isn't that money available, nor is there overwhelming evidence that it would be the right strategy.

If Tom wants more in the USA, he needs to find a way to make that happen for the USA.

I believe more marketing and more investment into manufacturing would work, but Tom is being much more cautious than that. He has been burned before it would seem (Z-grips and roller triggers come to mind). He doesn't have big money to throw at such a high risk project which ultimately he might not make that much back from.

He has lower safer risk options which he is following right now, while still having the X-mag at the top bringing people over to see what AGD has to offer.

To get another machine shop (say in the USA) to make more bodies/guns you would have to order higher numbers from them than there is currently demand for. The numbers it would take to get the price down the same or similar to AGDE would be greater than demand and so AGD would then have huge inventory costs sat on a shelf? That would be stupid.

So instead of looking to get them made in the USA AGD is having to make do with what they can get from the UK.

The demand here on AO is not the same in all of paintball, we just see a very vocal few. Demand in all of the market in the USA needs to go up for it to be the right decision to invest the money and risk into upping production. So until then having some available and making them a 'wanted icon' is helping AGD get noticed and hopefully increasing demand for all of AGD products.

Also there is more to the X-mag than just the body.

The ACE and board takes time to make and to assemble. The Frames need to be machined to accept the ACE board (= extra cost ) (all supposed to be done in the USA I think). Several batches of guns have been held up by frames and ACE boards...

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi



Thanks for the great post,
You are only supporting and proving the statments that freek has already said. good for you.

I am still lost, since noone hase answered my question, why milling a body takes so long.

jb

I guees freek and I are on the same wave. Which is good, since I am not the only one. One thing that people have to take into consideration is that there are other factors, such as not getting parts, or delays that have to be accounted for. If the battery packs (an example) doesn't come in, cuz of delays, or not enough, they can't sell the guns and just say sorry, no battery packs on this batch.

Point being, there are always things in the background that Joe Public will not know about, and it's easy to complain and whine at the things that are visible. The fact of the matter, if you were to turn the tables, I bet you wouldn't feel too good right now, especially if someone came to your house and was wondering why is dinner taking so long. Is it that hard to make rack of lamb and baked alaska? Hell, if you want, I can further the analogy, but you should get my point.