Why did the ROF cap die?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Tyger

Tyger, my point exactly, a little extra though:

If you hit blatantly late with intent to injure in football, you are fined and ejected and bonusballing is the rough equivalent of it.

In any sport, if you aggressively shove an official or verbally threaten him and say you are going to hurt him you are ejected suspended and fined.

Moves like grabbing the facemask and clipping the knees out have been made illegal in football for safety reasons and, if done intentionally, result in very costly penalties. The paintball equivalent would be shooting the neck or face point blank with intent to hurt and it does not result in penalties at all.

Behavior like arguing a call excessively on the field in most sports will get you ejected. Not paintball.

Our tournament style paintball format is young, so alot of growth is due, but right now we have some serious changes to make before we attract the same fans that watch other sports. Right now most pball fans are only those who actually play. We need:

1.) To get sponsors/product makers OUT of the decision making, it is way too biased right now and has too much effect on refs, resulting in biased calls and arguments as well as too much leeway including teams using illegal guns because the refs are scared to boot them for it.

2.) Set strict penalties for the most malicious and intentional penalties and ENFORCE them. There are strict penalties that should be happening now but they rarely get enforced, especially against top teams.

3.) Put guys like Lasoya, Willrocks, and the many other "bad boys" in line. They cheat, do stuff like start fights, maliciously overshoot, shoot hot, play on (Lasoya steamroller) and just in general are the scumbags of the game who get away with it because they have a popular image and have all the 12 year-old suburan ghetto-wannabe noobs thinking they're the best and trying to act like them, promoting the cheating playing style. If they step out of line, they need to be penalized like anyone else would to set an example. A football player would be suspended for similar actions, so suspend these guys. It's sick that there are so many dirtbags out there who are some of our sport's icons and we need to keep them in line or boot them if we can't.

[magnj]

This is a good thread. I have been thinking about this a bit latley. And I think that the major series, at least NPPL is moving towards limiting the ROF, of course not nearly fast enough. I worked field crew and watched hundreds of guns get checked for bounce, they were checked wrong. YOu have kids who took a 2 hour class reffing big time teams like dynasty, they are gonna let them do whatever they want.

I would not oppose a limit of 18 or 20BPS or maybe even higher because like Manike said, I rarley see people get hit 20 times at 20bps, I do see people getting hit 3,4,5,6 times at 18,19,20 bps but I have never seen anyone hit for a full second at such a high rof. That is why guns shoot so fast.

[Digits]

Re: Food for thought

Originally posted by Tyger
In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.

You can intimidate a ref, and get your way. You can threaten a tournament organiser to get your way, and more often than not you'll get your way if you can throw weight behind it. Hell, you can throw a bunker at the head ref, and not only get your way, but you won't get any penalties.

It feeds into the BPS, a lot of players use it to harm other players. Why? It's rewarded. You intimidate your opponents, you can win. And it's all about chalking up "W's", isn't it? Shooting players point blank in the neck is glorified because it's deemed "Macho" or "X-Treme". So you shoot a lot of paint, you must be a bad (Insert colorful adjective here) because you could hurt people with impunity.

Related to this topic, but kinda out of it. But, food for thought.

-Tyger

I've yet to see anyone rip off someone elses mask and start a brawl.. This is a once in a blue moon occurence.. The worst i've seen are players chewing eachother out.. And what the hell are you talking about with the W's crap

[Digits]

but.. I do agree that the arguing with refs thing is crap.. If it was obviously a bad call you can argue it.. But some people argue it when thet KNOW it was a right call, but they just want to play in the game more.. Players should just get pulled or like a 3 game suspension if they argue with refs..

[Furby]

Re: Food for thought

Originally posted by Tyger
In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.

You can intimidate a ref, and get your way. You can threaten a tournament organiser to get your way, and more often than not you'll get your way if you can throw weight behind it. Hell, you can throw a bunker at the head ref, and not only get your way, but you won't get any penalties.

It feeds into the BPS, a lot of players use it to harm other players. Why? It's rewarded. You intimidate your opponents, you can win. And it's all about chalking up "W's", isn't it? Shooting players point blank in the neck is glorified because it's deemed "Macho" or "X-Treme". So you shoot a lot of paint, you must be a bad (Insert colorful adjective here) because you could hurt people with impunity.

Related to this topic, but kinda out of it. But, food for thought.

-Tyger

Not sure I totally agree with that viewpoint...it may have been true a couple of years ago, but those days are gone now.

I'm basing my opinion on my recent experience at World Cup. Now granted, WC is a major event, so obviously they're going to go out of their way to find the best of the best, ref wise. The bunch I saw reffing this year didn't take and crap and enforced the rules. The DYE field in particular (IIRC) had a bunch of hardcases reffing...they were a crew from OK that does alot of tournement play and reffing, so they know what to look for, and the personalities involved wouldn't be intimidated by some loudmouthed TWiB who thinks he can argue his way to a win. For the most part I was pretty happy with the reffing. Pity this sort of thing can't filter down to the local tournements where alot of this behavior takes root.

As for ROF, it's a matter of discipline. With the refs checking for bounce now, it's getting tougher and tougher to let your gun do all your work for you. I played WC with an LCD Angel with an Eclipse Blade frame and a trigger job to die for...but it wouldn't bounce. I had no desire to get ejected or stopped from playing because the gun wasn't up to snuff. As it was, I was hitting my ROF cap of 16bps anyways. With the right methodology you can lay out the suppressive fire (which is why alot of guys shoot so fast and so much) yet still have the control over the gun. These days the little wannabes with their blinged out Timmahs just don't have the discipline to deal with the firepower they have at their disposal. Start with the players and the equipment won't be such a factor...

However, we live in an imperfect world populated by imperfect players. It's a matter of common sense that you shoot until the player you're shooting either puts an arm up or the ref pulls him. Even in rec ball these days it's common sense to do so, just because there are people out there who think it's FUN to cheat and get away with it. Do I think it's necessary to light up a 12 year old newbie with a rental tippmann? No, but if YOU as a player excercise some common sense and judiciously apply restraint as needed, then you can play fairly and not have to get disrespected by Johnny Bling Bling and his WAS'd out Timmah on the rec/scenario/tourney field. I get respect not because I'm a money player (don't screw with me, but there are LOTS of players out there more competent than I am) but because I give and expect respect out on the field. Even Johnny Bling Bling respects me because he knows I'll respect him until he chooses to cross the line. Play your own game and set an example.

Just my .02, like it or don't.

I'm just a nasty, old, hairy back player with bad knees and a spastic trigger finger(s)...

[Justin Richardson]

bps

like some of u said i thing high bps is used on running opponets, and shooting someone 5 times or more is to ensure they are out, because if your in a tournament, it sucks shooting someone and later getting hit by that player because they all bounced. and when u bunker someone, u accualy start shooting right before u round the corner of the bunker so that u can be sure u clearly shoot that player before he\she shoots u. sometimes that player gets one or two hits, and sometimes they get mor than what they would like, but if that bunker move could break that game wide open, your not going to take any chances.

and if your playing noobs then they should learn to put up with it........just kidding. if your just playing a regular walk on game, then the stakes shouldn't be that high and the expereanced players should be able to tone the agression down a little.

[luke]

Re: Ahh time to start a discussion to prove a point...

Originally posted by manike
When oh when will people realise the difference between ROF and number of balls fired?

I can shoot you at 50bps and only have 2 balls leave the gun.

Who says high rof is unsafe? What is unsafe about being hit twice in a short period of time?

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it. And yes high rof do make it easier for someone to over shoot, but that person has to do the overshooting. "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people".

I shoot at very high rof and very rarely hit someone more than twice. Maybe if they keep coming they might get a few more, but often it's only a few hits.

I agree completely with Jeff, play with people of a like mind. The guys that play NXL realise they are all shooting at high rof and take it as part of the game. If you don't want to play the 'unlimited format' then don't.

Watching NXL is nowhere near as interesting with guns shooting 6bps. It's much more spectacular to watch streams of paint fly and impact. High rof make the NXL better to watch.

Ultimately if the amount of paint shot becomes more of a safety risk, I see better protective equipment becoming mandatory. But there has been no evidence of it being unsafe yet that I am aware of.

Well said and right on the money!!!!!

[sneakyhacker420]

suck it up and take the pain, i get hit multiple times all the time! i don't give a crap, i'm pretty much immune to the stinging... i'll get welts and wonder when i got shot there in the first place


only thing i dont like is shot-on-top-of-shot on my goggles, its a pain in the *** to clean out around the edges and it eventually scratches the lens, but thats about it

its all in fun i guess



and for the bps factor, its always gonna go up, otherwise the market would stop in its tracks right here, and paintball would die off eventually

[Digits]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
suck it up and take the pain, i get hit multiple times all the time! i don't give a crap, i'm pretty much immune to the stinging... i'll get welts and wonder when i got shot there in the first place


only thing i dont like is shot-on-top-of-shot on my goggles, its a pain in the *** to clean out around the edges and it eventually scratches the lens, but thats about it

its all in fun i guess



and for the bps factor, its always gonna go up, otherwise the market would stop in its tracks right here, and paintball would die off eventually

Die off? I doubt it.. BPS is at it's peak.. No one can physically shoot faster than what guns are capable off atm.. Maybe now more companies will work on other aspects such as efficiency and consistancy..

[Rope a Dope]

Re: Why did the ROF cap die?

Originally posted by spleefstylez
Why did the ROF cap die?

'cause it was a stupid idea?

[AGD]

1. There never was a semi auto cap there was a full auto ban. You see where that went.
2. Most industry people thought the ROF was too high at 8 and said they would get out if it got to 10 or 11. You didn't see anyone leave did you?
3. In 1998 at an industry meeting, everyone was confident that ROF would always be limited to less than 12 because of gravity fed loaders.
4. At that same meeting I got up and told everyone that if they thought 12 was the limit they were dreaming and it would be way higher than that soon. No one took me seriously.
5. Every time this subject comes up people make the point no human fingers can do 20. See #4 above and substitute 20 for the 12.
6. In my professional opinion, the real limit is somewhere between 30 to 40. Most likely around 35, in semi mode, with fingers. If you don't belive it, remember #3 above.
7. Most of you will say you would never play paintball at 30 BPS. Your addicted, its just like heroin, you don't really care if it kills you. See #2 above.

Been around enough to know,

AGD

[Tyger]

Originally posted by AGD
(A lot of good stuff, AND :
7. Most of you will say you would never play paintball at 30 BPS. Your addicted, its just like heroin, you don't really care if it kills you. See #2 above.

((taps inside of his elbow))

I am a social paintball player.
I can quit any time I want.
I only play paintball with friends. On weekends.

Hang on, gotta loosen the belt on my arm here. NYAAHH!! Ok, much better.

You're right tho. We want moe paint, fastr shots, nd tighter strings. Problem is that it's becoming destructive to the players who play. If I want to see bloodshed, I'll rent Rambo, not watch a tournament event. Destructive habits are not what will sell the game, athleticisim and skills ("Show me something I can't do") WILL sell it.

Personally, I wuld like to see no cap on ROF, but a cap on paint. You can have a 50 BPS gun, but you only get 200 balls. Now there you'd have a show of skill. But, until the players realise that TV won't want to watch guys hiding behind bunkers for a whole game, you'll get sling-fests.

**sigh**

Paintball, a wonerful enigma. We embrace technology upgrades but fear change.

Other stuff too :

Originally posted by Digits


I've yet to see anyone rip off someone elses mask and start a brawl.. This is a once in a blue moon occurence.. The worst i've seen are players chewing eachother out.. And what the hell are you talking about with the W's crap

"W's". Wins. I know AGD plays clen, I had the pleasure of plaing against them a few times, good games. But I know too many teams that are willing ot use everything to win. Winning mens sponsors. Sponsors means money. Money means more paintball. Cheating is rewarded,as long as you're winning.

I've had to seperate players going to blows before. NOT fun. And I've seen players throw guns, shove players, shove refs, shoot dead players out of malice, and so on. I know that there are teams that spend DAYS training on how to wipe, how to hide hits, how to cheat. And I've seen the All Americans throw a hissy fit at Skyball, throw a bunker, and get a "Do-over" becasue they didn't like how the game was called on the field. (Can you REALLY get a do-over in ANY other sport?!?!?!?)

Want more? I'll produce video. I'm still waiting on the Vid from '94 Reno featuring a REALLY obvious wipe from someone who still plays in the pro ranks today. When I get it, it's on the 'dog.

Jaded? Moi?

-Tyger

[nerobro]

I've seen this discussion a hundred times. the numbers AGD is tossing around.. are sane. And frightening at the same time.

[cledford]

Re: Ahh time to start a discussion to prove a point...

Originally posted by manike
When oh when will people realise the difference between ROF and number of balls fired?

I can shoot you at 50bps and only have 2 balls leave the gun.

Who says high rof is unsafe? What is unsafe about being hit twice in a short period of time?

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it. And yes high rof do make it easier for someone to over shoot, but that person has to do the overshooting. "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people".

I shoot at very high rof and very rarely hit someone more than twice. Maybe if they keep coming they might get a few more, but often it's only a few hits.

I agree completely with Jeff, play with people of a like mind. The guys that play NXL realise they are all shooting at high rof and take it as part of the game. If you don't want to play the 'unlimited format' then don't.

Watching NXL is nowhere near as interesting with guns shooting 6bps. It's much more spectacular to watch streams of paint fly and impact. High rof make the NXL better to watch.

Ultimately if the amount of paint shot becomes more of a safety risk, I see better protective equipment becoming mandatory. But there has been no evidence of it being unsafe yet that I am aware of.

Well said!

From Manike's point of view this is likely just another American issue. The players can't control themselves and how many times they shoot someone - so someone else should step in and regulate - absolving the player (once again) of any responsibility for his/her actions. It is no secret to the rest of the world knows that we (Americans) cannot accept any responsibility for our actions and must be "parented" to behave correctly. We are the butt of many jokes from across the pond (deservedly so) and I know after spending a lot of time in the UK that they are constantly amazed over there by our lack of self control and our expectation that someone else besides ourselves is responsible for fixing our own problems. They are really shocked by our inability to accept responsibly for our own stupid actions - I can't tell you how many times I've had "the piss taken out of me" for stuff like the old lady who sued McDonalds over the coffee she burned herself with - after putting the cup between her legs while driving!

Manike is right - Over shooting is not a result of bps (lets face it can you really tell the difference on the receiving end of a strings of hits that was 20bps vs. 13?) but of players attitude and lack of respect for others, with a healthy dose of lack of sportsmanship themselves.

-Calvinh

[cgrieves]

In my opinion, in the situation that most often occurs in paintball, i.e. a player walking a trigger at a bunker to keep a key opposition player in, if you end up scoring 10 or more hits to a significant body part then it's either Christmas or the opposition have never played paintball before. The majority of occurances of multiple hits normally happens a few seconds later when the player is walking out, but as already mentioned that's disrespect on the part of the shooting player. The eliminated player can do a lot to prevent this happening however- a hand out of the bunker, choosing an exit route with cover etc etc. The rules concerning overshooting need tightening, but it's always going to be a contraversial issue.

If you are shooting a key running lane at 20bps and a player runs through and is eliminated, they are going to have 1, or again at Christmas time, 2 hits. No problem there. If you are being hit by 20 consecutive balls while breaking out then your breakout strategy needs serious revision.

Bunkering is another contraversial situation where there will always be the potential for conflict. Two balls that hurt will always incence a situation, particularly where the bunkered player is often on the losing side. The humiliation of defeat added to sharp physical pain will always be a volatile mix. Sharp marshalling will help here, and respect between players is key, but at the top level you can expect the opposition to make sure of the elimination. I you can't take that then learn to win or call yourself out. Personally being the last man in and waiting for the inevitable is part of the spice of paintball, and remember the spotlight is on you for heroics-use the opportunity!!

Having been hit multiple times at point blank range while wearing only a thin playing shirt, I cannot see a significant potential for injury providing the markers in question is within the rules. Sure, it hurts. Sure you get welts, but 10, 20 or even 100 welts are not going to put you at significant risk. I guess 20 shots to the goggles could be hazardous given current visor technology, but again, if you get 20 shots to the goggles, something else has already gone seriously wrong.

So I can't see any issue with fast firing markers if the game is being played within the rules, the marshalls are reasonably awake, and the guns are firing under the chronograph limit. Exceptional circumstances will always occur, but personally I'd rather see effort put into stopping cheating and encouraging respect amongst players than in slowing down the tool of the trade.