Why did the ROF cap die?

[LudavicoSoldier]

And so the proverbial "can of worms" is opened.

Glad to see all the responses.

There needs to be more discussion regarding the effects of high rof, overshooting, and the general bad behavior that we have seen coming from teams sponsored by supposed leaders of this industry. There needs to be a governing body, IMHO, that is devoid of companies that sponsor major teams. As mentioned by other board members, there is a potential (at literal) conflict of interest when teams and companies are both setting the rules and playing under them at the same time. I'm not saying that leading companies' opinions are not valid, however, they CAN NOT be the end all and be all of decision making in this sport. There needs to be a third party (read umpires or something like that) that can put up a relatively un-biased opinion, I.E. an opinion that serves the interest of rec ballers as well as tourny ballers.

It also seems that as paintball is becoming more of an "Extreme" sport, bad behavior is now being tolerated, on account of the "X-treme" and "Badass" qualities that surround most if not all Extreme sports. I love seeing paintball get publicity, however, it seems that bad publicity has become good publicity. Bad behavior is celebrated as good behavior. It drives me insane when these kids (and grown men/women mind you) think that this type of behavior is "kewl" or the way to go. Someone needs to assess penalties for this type of behavior, because while it may be making the sport grow now, it will ultimatly damage us all.

A couple more cents for yer piggy bank!

[SteelSoul]

Here look at it from a diffrent way....
This last weekend my son played his first turny at our local field. He has been playing for 2 years now and he got a Custom 98 for his b-day last year, this thing only has a new barrel for upgrades no RT or anything.
I watched his team play all the way up to the finals.
Here is the part that was kewl, I didn't see one kid get over painted. Hell my son took out the hole other team and he shot 20 balls, I watched him bunker 2 kids that game. The frist one he shot ONCE and the 2nd one he shot him 2 times, I even saw my son go up the that kid and say he was sorry for shooting him TWICE. I have been playing for 10 years and I still go by the rule 1 hit is enough but I guess I am old school..

So later that day after the turny I was watching some older kids play, like 16 and up. They were yelling, screaming, streams of paint were flying and I didn't see any of them kids have as much fun as my son and his buddies had that morning.

It is all in the way you play the game.
I hope my son keeps playing they way he does now and I feel I have done a good job in telling him there is not any reason to over paint, NONE.

Just the ramblings of a ol fart...

Steel

[LudavicoSoldier]

I also feel the fun factor has been deminished in the last few years. I guess now that paintball is a sport its all about the "W"... Sad.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Tyger
...and get a "Do-over" because they didn't like how the game was called on the field.

[hitech]

Re: Tyger

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
...ENFORCE them.

I basically agree with everything you said. However, this one is a pet-peeve of mine. The GD rules need to be enforced. I KILLS me to see that we have gone BACKWARD in that area since I was reffing in the late 80s and early 90s. We had better rules and they were better enforced.

[coolcatpete]

I thought that most fields inforce these rules I know mine does and if you bck talk to the ref its a warning, one more and you are out for two games. over shooting is the same way exept you are out for the day no refund so I think more foelds should be like ours.

[GoatBoy]

Hrm we seem to have somewhat digressed from the original topic.

I seem to be the only one in favor of full auto. Game wise, you have to remember that you have to wear that paint walking on to the field, unless they start instituting some on-field vending machine bunker that sells you paint mid-game. Uh oh, did I just give some crappy paintball company an idea for a new product? Or maybe we can just make bunkers out of giant self-serve boxes of paint. I have very little respect for the companies and the players that have willed paintball into what it is today, tell you the truth.

Anyways, high ROF == slower player, and more reloads in the hands of the foolish. And probably reduced accuracy due to paint breakage.

Safety wise, I have been hurt far worse by rental tippmanns and spyders than any high ROF gun. In fact I've been hurt more by the frickin recball surrender rule than any high ROF gun; how ironic is that? Granted, I haven't had the "privilege" of playing with such upstanding players like Lasoya.


I almost never approve of ANY solution that involves attempting to control HUMAN BEHAVIOR by LIMITING TECHNOLOGY. It doesn't work. History seems to have solidly proven that this little philosophy fails, over and over.


The overshooting thing kind of reminds me of speeding. There isn't really any indication (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that speeding causes accidents. It does make them more fatal, I'll give them that. I honestly think that numbnuts that drive excessively slow cause more accidents than those who speed. So you kind of have to separate the two. The insurance companies would be better served by looking into things OTHER than ROF.

In the end, I think that full auto should just be allowed. I think the problems would work themselves out.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I'm going to agree I think Full auto should be allowed in the upper tourney circuits

The only people who can play those circuits anyways are the people who can afford to throw cases of paint a game, I certianly cant

And it truley is the person not the gun, a high rof gun is a tool and most people just dont know how to use it

[E==Mag MAN]

Most players are not shooting between 15-20 bps. Everyone gets worked up and thinks because they can put a stream out at 13 they must be shooting 17-18 because it looks fast. Just last practice on fool was bragging to be shooting 20-22 bps on average with his impulse and 12V rev. I really dont see a problem with rates of fire in tournaments but sometimes rec games can get a little intense.

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
...And probably reduced accuracy due to paint breakage.

um... LX? ACE? no breaks here buddy

and f/a in tourneys or even in rec ball??, hell no.

the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto... thats what will destroy paintball, no skill involved with f/a

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

points

Cledford, I like your post. You made a very valid point that how society is today in general, if you can get away with it it is considered ok to do which is sick, and a key reason why so many crimes happen. Paintball is a tough game to regulate and because of this "it's ok if you don't get caught" mentality or "the ends justify the means" mentalitity coupled with the regulators' lack of interest in strictly moderating it, it has become a disgustingly corrupt game at the tourney level and I definitely don't consider it an organized sport on par with baseball, football, etc, and this is a key factor in holding it back from being mainstream. It's hurting the game but it's not a ROF issue, it's a player behavior issue. People who haven't seen paintball before see the game as it is now and refuse to try it because of that. Alot of people have no interest in being a spectator for events where little babies are throwing temper tantrums.

Hitech, thank you for agreeing with me. I am so disgusted by the cheating and bias I hear taking place in tourney leagues up here in Boston that I refuse to waste my money to not enjoy playing in them and have to deal with these types of players on and off the field. The AO*MA'ers are great guys, but they are a small portion of the players and alot of the others around here are the same guys I have a problem with and who also represent the stores around here. And guess who sponsors the leagues and runs the events? You got it, the stores, and the friends of the storepeople definitely take advantage of that.

And I do agree with AGD, ten years ago the thought of a 30bps marker was insane and we got there. It can easily happen again. But that's ok, if the 1 shot, 1 pull rule started being enforced and penalties were enforced.

It's great talking about this, but until a change is made where the negative behavior is not tolerated at all and rules are enforced, this sport is going nowhere fast. Huntington Beach? Big deal. It's the same people, more expensive tourney.

[raehl]

ROF is not the problem.

A paintball gun is just a tool, and people have to be responsible for how they use their tools. High ROF is a byproduct of RELIABLE OPERATION.

And it's not the players' fault the players don't behave. Well, it kind of is, but the reality of the situation is as Tyger pointed out: It's a sport, and teams will do what increases the chances of winning, and expecting anything else is silly.

It is 100% the fault of the leagues if players are not behaving, because the league is fully capable of making misbehavior NEGATIVELY impact the chances of winning. I know it can be done, because the NCPA has been doing it for four years now. It's not just having honest players, but also delivering on the expectation those honest players have that players who are not honest will be penalized for it.

If honest players feel like other players are benefitting from not being honest, you'll suddenly find yourself with a lot fewer honest players - as they either stop playing, or switch to less honest players.


ROF isn't the issue. 30 BPS has a use when you're shooting off the break or at the 2" square of exposed player 150 feet away from you. ROF won't be limitted by caps on guns, it'll be strategically limitted because if you're shooting 30 BPS, you're reloading every 6 seconds and that's a huge hole for your opponents to be moving.

And, lastly, getting hit 5 or 10 times is annoying, paintful, whatever, but it is *NOT* dangerous, in any athletic sense of "danger". If you want danger, play soccer or basketball or football.


Penalize people for misbehaving. It's much easier than trying to regulate equipment, unless you're willing to make everyone use the same marker.


- Chris

[Tyger]

Re: ROF is not the problem.

Originally posted by raehl

Penalize people for misbehaving. It's much easier than trying to regulate equipment, unless you're willing to make everyone use the same marker.

Problem is that, in my expirence, over 10+ years of observation, they won't penalise the PLAYER. In fact, cheating is often REWARDED.

You can regulate equipment easily. "Either conform to my rules, or not play." It just means you need to alter the rulebook. Which doesn't work becasue the players also make the rules, and the players who make the rules often excell at CHEATING at those rules, and we're back to square 1. Cheating is rewarded.

Chris : We reffed that tournament. You know that the players tried to lobby the field owner to change a decision we made on the field. They weren't punished, but they didn't get what they wanted. In other sports, they would have been penalised for arguing with a ref, or trying to manipulate the outcome of a game. It's the culture of the game, if you don't like the rules, intimidate the refs or threaten the organisers to get your way.

You can't change the culture overnight, sure. But I can damn well be disgusted by it.

Dang it, now I'm mad.

-Tyger

[Gadget]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto... thats what will destroy paintball, no skill involved with f/a

'like the British'? What is that supposed to mean?

[LudavicoSoldier]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420

the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto...

Ummm...isnt FA illegal in Britian?