Is this really the way things are with the pro level markers?

[Miscue]

Referring to shooting the EMag with an external magnetic field source... I actually did something like this when I was looking at the noise problem on the EMag. With a fully assembled EMag, I also had a bare EMag board plugged to a battery pack, with a solenoid attached to it. I was doing this so I could experiment with how far the solenoid had to be from the HES to not interfere with it and make the marker fire. If I fired my loose board, the marker would also fire if the solenoid was close enough.

I'd imagine all you need is a small battery, copper wire that you coil, and a means for pulsing the signal to create a glove cheat. The most expensive component of this would probably be the glove.

/me might just go pick up a few car batteries and a loom of copper cable to see what happens.

[GoatBoy]

Woah. I stayed out of this so far, due to the sheer ridiculousness of it all. Have we gone so far as a country as to make the above statement true. Think about the ramifications, not just in paintball, of that particular statement.

Yes.


Miscue: neato... although I have to wonder why you need something to pulse the solenoid... couldn't you just use the inherent bounce of whatever switch you were already going to use?

[Brophog]

That's scary, don't you think.

Guess not.

[GoatBoy]

That's scary, don't you think.

Guess not.

Yes.



Do you not believe it, or do you not want to believe it?

[lamby]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Second, I have seen some really small oscillators (1/16 inch surface mount) that would be great to pulse your "coil"

Shartly... I promise you this If I wanted a gloved based cheat I can do it without a problem. This is not complex programming or electronics we are talking about.

If you can not figure it out fine.... the are other that can and have already...

I can put this tech inside a "wedding ring" If I wanted to spend the money to do so.

Edit to correct a speculation******

[Miscue]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Second, I have seen some really small oscillators (1/16 inch surface mount) that would be great to pulse your "coil"

Shartly... I promise you this If I wanted a gloved based cheat I can do it without a problem. This is not complex programming or electronics we are talking about.

If you can not figure it out fine.... the are other that can and have already...

I can put this tech inside a "wedding ring" If I wanted to spend the money to do so.

Edit to correct a speculation******

Well, he said some other things that I was referring to... that I caught before he deleted it. There is a missing post, and I didn't quote it.

An oscillator is precisely what I had in mind, actually.

[Brophog]

Yes.



Do you not believe it, or do you not want to believe it?

I'd like to not believe it, but you're probably right. It's just sad, that's all.

[SlartyBartFast]

It is a pity that with all the time and money you invested, your brain does not perform any better and you are unable to apply what you have studied. With this in mind, my line of argumentation will be lost on you as well - so I write this for the entertainment of others. Do you realize that what "qualifications" you have mentioned are trivial and not pertinent to the subject in discussion? If it makes you feel better I started programming when I was 3 and knew all of the languages you mentioned before I was 15. Also, one of my degrees is more pertinent to this topic than yours. But unlike you, I understand why these things are not worthy of mention and are irrelevant for determining one's qualifications and judgment on this topic. It does not change how right I am, and it does not make you less wrong.

While your posts seem to prove that you are certainly a pompous prig and think very highly of yourself, your resorting to ad hominem attacks shows nothing to support your self image.

What magical experience/knowledge do you have that makes you so eminently qualified then? Or are you one of those mental midgets that just figures that because someone refuses to think and view the world in exactly the same way as you do it MUST be because you're somehow blessed with omnipotence? Using that logic, it could just as well be you that's delusional.

Seems to remind me of a pompous dink who couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag but was quick to claim no one could possibly understand him or was qualified to argue with him. Don't make boards for a multimillion dollar company operating from an empty lot do you Tapper?

Not withstanding the fact that I still think enforcement of the basic rules is required first: Easy test to stop the coil in a glove, just subject all hardware to external magnetic fields before it can be approved for tournament use.

--edit--
Looks like I won't be hearing from you for a couple of days Tapper. Take care of your headaches.

[SlartyBartFast]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Well, if you want to attack me on logic go right ahead. But you gotta prove you can use it yourself.
Tapper's last posts were more like brain farts than anything else. I don't understand something? All right smart guy, point it out and use your logic to prove why your viewpoint is right.
Take the insults, personally directed derogatory comments, and inuendo off down to the preschool playground.

[billmi]

I'd imagine all you need is a small battery, copper wire that you coil, and a means for pulsing the signal to create a glove cheat. The most expensive component of this would probably be the glove.

The battery itself might not even be necessary.

A coil in the palm of the glove would have a pulse inducted into it by the magnetic field of the solenoid coil - wire that to a cpoil in the mid-finger of the glover, and it will generate a corresponding magnetic pulse lined up with the HES. It would be a passive way to trigger the HES with the solenoid pulse - if it's strong enough.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm always amused that the vast majority of the posts in every topic that complains about cheating is about how to better cheat and not how to make the game better and level the playing field.

Seems most players here are resigned to accept cheating where it stands and to go along with it.

[billmi]

It would take almost nothing to do something like this. Hell, I can. Yes, something in glove or crotch could work. A radio frequency switch, that switches the code rom cheat to non cheat or semi to full auto, and you trigger it by hidden buttons on your pocket or crotch or whatever

That's complex and unnecessary. Having radio receiver circuitry on the board is a visible giveaway that it's designed to cheat.

I wrote a cheater program for my LCD Rainmaker in 1999 to demonstrate that this would become an issue and why (and no, I've never used it on a field - only to demonstrate that software cheats would one day become a problem.) When you tap "shave and a haircut" on the trigger it then fires full auto until you release the trigger. Because you can't download the software out of the board and decompile it the *only* way to catch this cheat is if you happen to know what the activation code is. That same tactic has been used successfully by at least one pro team (I've used the board and a player told me under condition of anonymity about it - and I can pretty much guarantee it's not who you think) in years past to unlock rate of fire ramping modes. If the modes revert to true semi-auto after a couple of seconds of not firing, there is no way a "trigger robot" or any other technology can catch it.

As for flashing boards before players go on the field, I've been told by more than one manufacturer that they'd never allow anything like that. They are concerned over liability issues with field flashable boards, where they could be sued for an injury caused by a paintgun being run by software they didn't write. As for encapsulated boards to prove it's got authentic software limiting software cheats to only "factory" teams - that's great, but when you get to the NXL and the majority of pro NPPL teams, you're talking about all "factory teams" and in many cases also teams owned by the companies that own the tournament series in which they are competing. When you get to the lower levels, there's less inscentive to ban teams from a series or do anything more than kick them out from a single event, because if they don't come back, there's less revenue in entry fees.

For the pranksters - it would indeed be entertaining to see the reaction of team managers, if someone (who is not event connected to the teams involved) stood near the netting pointing a small directional antenna at a player and pressing buttons on a small box connected to it, and refusing to comment if questioned.

Years ago, an Aftershock player showed up with a toggle switch mounted on his Autococker shroud - with two labels - "Hi" and "Low." Bob Long went straight to the refs with an objection. The switch wasn't wired to anything.

[billmi]

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet.

Not even bounce, I've seen folks shooting auto-response at pro level events that way with an NTSC camera. Anymore you'd need a high-speed rig though.

[GoatBoy]

Not withstanding the fact that I still think enforcement of the basic rules is required first: Easy test to stop the coil in a glove, just subject all hardware to external magnetic fields before it can be approved for tournament use.

That's funny, Miscue just got you to include a clause that banned all x/emags or anything with a HES in your growing super scheme to eliminate cheating.



As far as Tapper is concerned, I didn't see the deleted post that got him banned. But I'd say you just crossed the line yourself. Of course, that's not for me to judge.

Tapper wasn't banned because he was factually wrong about anything that he said, and that includes statements regarding your background's relevance to what he was alluding to.

To put it simply, in one section he was talking about debounce, and means of bypassing, disabling, or simply interfering with the function of debounce. And it doesn't even have to be trigger debounce.

He's talking about some more advanced stuff. I prefer to stay low-tech and talk about simple things, like defeating little things like encapsulation and stickers. Decapping boards is an engineering co-op level job. The order of complexity that you included to perform encapsulation, make it practical yet still effective within the confines of a gun, and actually be able to properly check for tampering, is through the roof.

Other people have referred to the lack of practicality of your scheme.

And in the end, all your brainstorming can't fix the base philosophical dilemma that we face.




What you are proposing is neither technically, nor practically, nor philosophically sound. How much more wrong can you be? (Yes, that's a rhetorical question; I don't really want to find out.)

[billmi]

Seems most players here are resigned to accept cheating where it stands and to go along with it.

I disagree with that - I definitely think more needs to be done to address technical based (i.e. rigged equipment vs. what a player does on the field like wipe a hit) cheating. What I disagree with is the claim that it would be very simple to deal with, or what some have claimed is that it has been solved with devices like the NPPL's trigger bot.