Is this really the way things are with the pro level markers?

[lamby]

As this is a print medium, it'd be libel, not slander.

Thank you for the correction.. I work in a tv station and slander is drilled into my head. I forgot about the seperation of print and spoken media..

I bow in my concession.

Tom still is not giving us anything to use to prove his arguement or debunk the libal that he was speaking off.

TOM CAN YOU PROVE THESE ACCUSATIONS???

[Head knight of Ni]

"New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation." well not cheater boards but "the such" yes.

NPPL 1 PSP 0 cheaters 20651

[Jaremy Rykker]

I just can't wait for everybody else to catch up to the times, it should be excellent.

"Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation."

Poor Marketing... Blitzkrieg is the first.
Small Market Presence... Only in tournament. They're picking up in scenario.
Slow Development... As compared to "Slap two tubes together, and if it doesn't work, just make hype that it does."
Terrible Roll-out Capability: TK, he has a point
Lower Performance... Back that up. I've found the newest AGD products to be of great quality.

Tom doesn't really give a care in the world about being a competetive tourney manufacturer anymore. Haven't you figured that out Stimulation? That's why the E-Mag and X-Mag were discontinued, and the two latest releases by AGD are the long-term TAC-ONE and the short release of the Sydarm. Heck, the only tournament-style marker they make anymore is the RT-ULE and it isn't an electro.

TK has a definate point, in that there is a ton of crap going on in tournament paintball, and a large number of the influential players cheat.

What is the advantage of sponsoring a tournament team to use your RT-ULE? People see this slow shooting mechanical marker that is shooting definitively slower than these electro cockers that are ramped and whatnot. Then finally, the team starts pulling their hair (triggers) out, and they come back to it, but there is no point in trying to advertise a legitimate product when cheat products outperform yours because they cheat the rules.


On the other hand, lets look at the brilliance of TK's latest move by sponsoring Blitzkrieg. For the opening note, scenario teams get a lot more contact with average players than some tournament team. They will be largely using well equipped TAC-ONEs (my understanding), and this is in an environment where the TAC-ONE and other similiar high-speed mechs really shine.

Scenario teams are on the whole more interactive with other participants in events, and the whole nature is friendlier. And, after that even, Tom Kaye himself no longer bothers with speedball, and comments how he basically just plays scenario now. Wonder if its just his selfish enjoyment of scenario that has him coming out with such sweet products, but believe my, I'm grateful for that selfish enjoyment.

[Beemer]

ReRead

Thank you for the correction.. I work in a tv station and slander is drilled into my head. I forgot about the seperation of print and spoken media..

I bow in my concession.

Tom still is not giving us anything to use to prove his arguement or debunk the libal that he was speaking off.

TOM CAN YOU PROVE THESE ACCUSATIONS???

Read the thread again. Tell me what part of the math you dont understand and I will explain some more.

What guns come out of the box with a debounce setting????????????????

Has the NPPL or any one banned any of these???????????????????
Why dont we have a governing body again???????????

The simple fact that there is a debounce or buffer makes it non ASTM conforming. PERIOD

I dont need no special code. All I have to do is reset it, of course how good I do that depends on how good I can cheat. Which aint to hard REALLY.

41 of your peers from in and around the industry put up these standards. Why??????????

Then to back pedal and do it anyway. WHY?????????????????

Tell me again why full auto was banned????????
Tell me again why we dont use uvex gogs anymore?????????

In the end, as far as the companies are concerned, they don't care because the people don't care.

All that aside, it's funny to see AGD get roasted like this. AGD is always right, huh

1 company I know of still cares but you are right about the rest. Are you with the people that dont care????

Who says AGD is always right? YOU? Big difference between always right and always cares.

[FallNAngel]

Because Why? Youre not that fast........go see my, how fast are you really thread
Sandman could pull 12 on a classic back in 92, wonder what he does on a ult now.

Avg is 8 to 10
Fast is 12 to 15
After that youre in the special skill group if it really is one shot one pull.

A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.

[Beemer]

Is it

A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.

And your angel and cyborg are really one shot one pull no bounce FORSURE. Meets ASTM Standards? Whats the human limit again? If you can pull 15 plus REALLY, good for you. Above average and skilled[fast] should mean something right. Well it did, but not no more.


I.A.D.S.P.B.P
Beemer

[jesseyo13]

The angel lcd has 0 bounce on its micro switch. If you have ever shot one you would know. It is impossible to get them to bouce even once, trust me Ive tried. Every angel with the opto board can bounce though if it is set up right.

[Dayspring]

He's right. First time using the Empire & the new Frenzy board (before it was actually released to anybody) you could feel the gun take off. Hell, we have it on video some where...

Ask Dayspring how long it took him to hit 17 the first time he tried an Empire Intimidator.

[Lurker27]

I have a friend that can hit 18+ consistently... It's definately not bounce, if you sound graph it you can see the rhythm, where they come in bursts of 2...index, middle, index, middle.

On the field, its detectable...jsut start pulling people for shooting faster than 25. It's not physically possible to sustain more than 20 for any appreciable length of time.

[Danman69]

A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.

\

In the last part, does fanning count?

[SlartyBartFast]

To do this right, you would need more than a simple-minded code check. It would require a full physical audit of components and layout, because boy, you could really be sneaky and bury a micro right inside the trigger switch, right? Or how about that one mysterious IC that was either unmarked or mislabeled?

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!?

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless.

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done.

[teufelhunden]

Poor Marketing... Blitzkrieg is the first.
Small Market Presence... Only in tournament. They're picking up in scenario.
Slow Development... As compared to "Slap two tubes together, and if it doesn't work, just make hype that it does."
Terrible Roll-out Capability: TK, he has a point
Lower Performance... Back that up. I've found the newest AGD products to be of great quality.

Tom doesn't really give a care in the world about being a competetive tourney manufacturer anymore. Haven't you figured that out Stimulation? That's why the E-Mag and X-Mag were discontinued, and the two latest releases by AGD are the long-term TAC-ONE and the short release of the Sydarm. Heck, the only tournament-style marker they make anymore is the RT-ULE and it isn't an electro.

TK has a definate point, in that there is a ton of crap going on in tournament paintball, and a large number of the influential players cheat.

What is the advantage of sponsoring a tournament team to use your RT-ULE? People see this slow shooting mechanical marker that is shooting definitively slower than these electro cockers that are ramped and whatnot. Then finally, the team starts pulling their hair (triggers) out, and they come back to it, but there is no point in trying to advertise a legitimate product when cheat products outperform yours because they cheat the rules.


On the other hand, lets look at the brilliance of TK's latest move by sponsoring Blitzkrieg. For the opening note, scenario teams get a lot more contact with average players than some tournament team. They will be largely using well equipped TAC-ONEs (my understanding), and this is in an environment where the TAC-ONE and other similiar high-speed mechs really shine.

Scenario teams are on the whole more interactive with other participants in events, and the whole nature is friendlier. And, after that even, Tom Kaye himself no longer bothers with speedball, and comments how he basically just plays scenario now. Wonder if its just his selfish enjoyment of scenario that has him coming out with such sweet products, but believe my, I'm grateful for that selfish enjoyment.

Blitzkreig is a scenario team. Don't see any scenario coverage online. You can't say that sponsoring a scenario team is like sponsoring a tourney team. I doubt I'll see D-Day DVDs out any time soon, but I guarantee you the nppl videos will keep coming out.

Yeah, thats how all the other companies do.

You agreed with bad rollout.

Performance? For $340, I could get a B2K or I could get an RTP. Hm. Performance usually means speed. B2K wins. Performance means accuracy. Equal, provided they have the same barrel and paint. Performance means efficiency... 'Mags lose to everybody here. That's performance. So there's lower performing.

Tom's taking Airgun from the tourney scene because they weren't successful, not because he doesn't want to be there anymore. If everybody was shooting X-Mags instead of Timmys, do you think he'd be leaving? Didn't think so.

Yadda yadda, cheating this cheating that. It's not as bad as everybody makes it out to be... its more people trying to bring down tourney ball cuz its not what they play. Ramps aren't even illegal anymore in the NXL, and gun cheats aren't as big of a deal in the NPPL... they haven't hit that heavy yet, from what I can tell. Only bounce, really, but now they have el robot.

I already wrote a nice thing about how the hAir may very well end up killing the 'Mag more than helping it. It's a few days old, you can search my posts.

Scenario players get more contact? Um, no? Maybe playing with the man next to you kinda contact, but there's nobody watching. And once again, far more videos/articles/pictures of tourney than scenario.



Man, I'm done with tourney ball for a while yet I still find myself defending it all the time. Hmm. Oh, I know why. Would offend people if I said it, but you can figure it out.

[billmi]

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start.

And it's just not practical.

First - you have to get all the manufacturers to agree to make boards that can be flashed in the field, and to turn over their authorized source code to an independant autitor/installer. A few years back, almost all of the leading manufacturers agreed to make semi-only paintguns with a 14 bps cap. None of them followed through on the agreement (some had faster guns on the market, and didn't restrict them, others came out with faster guns since.) No way will this ever happen in this fractured industry.

If it did happen......

Picture a typical PSP event:

Number of guns here is an estimate taking into account backup guns and extra players on the roster:

35 10 man teams at 15 guns per - 525
40 5 man teams at 7 guns per - 200
55 X Ball teams at 10 guns per - 550
9 NXL teams at 20 guns per - 180

That's a total of 1,455 guns that need to be checked for proper function (if you don't check it first, and it's a bad board, the customer then complains that you ruined their gun), have timing values downloaded, flashed with new software, timing values re uploaded then re-assembled and sealed with the tamper evident seal. Ballpark - lets say an average of 4 minutes per. That's 97 man hours of labor for teams to get their guns checked in.

Taking a person's picture and dropping it into a database, then printing an ID card is a fraction as complex or time consuming as "secure prepping" a paintgun, yet it took the NPPL 3 years to get to the point where the majority - though not 100% of the players had IDs - the first year the IDs were considered little more than a souvenier as they were mailed to the players after the season was over.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!?

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless.

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done.

Maybe all those things are possible, feasible, even easy. I'm not a tech, and I don't know. I'll trust Bill Mills' scepticism, though. E-markers are inherently difficult to verify. Maybe, if we want paintball to be a serious sport, with enforceable rules and a level playing field, we need to look at going back to mechanical-only markers.

But since none of us has any influence on the "pro" leagues, this is all academic.

[Smoke]

I doubt I'll see D-Day DVDs out any time soon, but I guarantee you the nppl videos will keep coming out.

Excuse me?!? Tell me you're joking.....

http://store.yahoo.com/actionvillage/059-143-0005.html

D-Day '04 is probably still in post production.