Is this really the way things are with the pro level markers?

[SlartyBartFast]

That's a total of 1,455 guns that need to be checked for proper function (if you don't check it first, and it's a bad board, the customer then complains that you ruined their gun), have timing values downloaded, flashed with new software, timing values re uploaded then re-assembled and sealed with the tamper evident seal. Ballpark - lets say an average of 4 minutes per. That's 97 man hours of labor for teams to get their guns checked in.

[FallNAngel]

It made sense to me... and I agree with the rules that need to be put in place and enforced. People complain about cheating, but when it comes time to prevent it, nothing is done. Perhaps it's just me, but I would think having the settings of the gun stored on one chip and the actual programming logic stored on another would simplify things.

When you go to walk on the field, you connect to a small laptop, and your gun is flashed. You turn your gun on, which will already have the settings (dwell, etc) stored on the other chip, and you're ready to go. If you're found with any other board in the frame, your team is ejected from the tournement and you lose all points gained. Checking the winning teams guns and other teams in lulls between games, would also help. It wouldn't need to be a huge indepth check... just open the grips and make sure there's nothing fishy going on.

As previously said though, it's not going to happen.

[Stimulation]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!?

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless.

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done.

It would take almost nothing to do something like this. Hell, I can. Yes, something in glove or crotch could work. A radio frequency switch, that switches the code rom cheat to non cheat or semi to full auto, and you trigger it by hidden buttons on your pocket or crotch or whatever

[GoatBoy]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!?

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

Some teams don't even have the budget to even PLAY paintball on their own. They usually get help on these things elsewhere. You think those players actually know how to write code for a microcontroller in the first place?

It looks like you acknowledged the need to audit hardware without actually admitting to it. You just used the term "authorised (sic)". That's odd, you went from a "simple" task of "an independant (sic) individual" examining and approving code to... well, someone examining and approving hardware. Maybe you simply implied this much larger requirement. Is there anything else that you've been implying that we should be aware of? We're obviously not as sharp as you on these matters.

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless.

So you think that the task of checking all markers for cheats is "simple", but you think designing a "sofisticated (sic)" scheme to defeat the checks would cost two billion dollars?

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done.

I guess if you were small minded, this would be the only course of action you were left with.

I never said there was no recourse against cheaters. I described the problem in the very post with the "invasive garbage" that you got hung up on. Did you go into your mad haze before you managed to finish reading my post?

There have been very few technological solutions that I can remember that actually managed to curb human desires. This is easily going to fall under this category.




Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for you to explain your fabulous tamper resistant sticker technology.

[hitech]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?...Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? ...

Please. Authorized boards, from authorized manufacturers, with authorized code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sophisticated testing regime.

While I agree that they need to start somewhere, trying to check the code and circuit board in the marker isn't a good start. For a few hundred dollars and a couple of weekends work I could make a cheater board that COULDN'T be detected by examining the marker. All it needs to do is produce a magnetic pulse (a simple thing to do) near the HES. Control it with a basic stamp, vary the time between the pulse and you have a cheater board that is not contained within the marker. No radio frequency necessary.

All current cheats have been software because it's easy to do and no one is checking anything.

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet.


BTW, I am NOT some electronic engineering genius. I took two years of HIGH SCHOOL electronics and I know how to write business application software (not embedded circuit software). The cheat I am talking about requires basic electronic and programming knowledge. Almost everything you need to know can be found at www.warpig.com .

[SlartyBartFast]

Some teams don't even have the budget to even PLAY paintball on their own. They usually get help on these things elsewhere. You think those players actually know how to write code for a microcontroller in the first place?

So you think that the task of checking all markers for cheats is "simple", but you think designing a "sofisticated (sic)" scheme to defeat the checks would cost two billion dollars?

I guess if you were small minded, this would be the only course of action you were left with.

I never said there was no recourse against cheaters. I described the problem in the very post with the "invasive garbage" that you got hung up on. Did you go into your mad haze before you managed to finish reading my post?

There have been very few technological solutions that I can remember that actually managed to curb human desires. This is easily going to fall under this category.

Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for you to explain your fabulous tamper resistant sticker technology.

[SlartyBartFast]

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet.

I've suggested in the past that each team be allowed to designate a video camera operator. Then, have very specific penalties for evidence of rules infractions after the fact or of wasting the judges time with bogus complaints.

I'd love to see you build something with a basic stamp that wouldn't be obvious even to an untrained eye that it didn't belong on a production board.

[trains are bad]

I have a simple solution.

Limit paint, and allow any firing modes desired, and enforce overshooting. Nobody will want to shoot 20bps when they only have 500 rounds. And get pulled for shooting someone more than 3-4 times. The problem will solve itself.

If you want the ROF/safety factor to change, you have to make it to the teams advantage to change it. The teams' job is to push the rules. Right now the rules are unenforceable. Why this was not anticipated and is not being dealt with is obvious: Paintball's organizing bodies are a joke.

But nobody listens to me.

[SlartyBartFast]

I have a simple solution.

But those are no fun! But you do make an excellent point. On the otherhand, go look at the threads we've had on AO when rying to discuss even the most basic rules and their enforcement.

Personally, I think limited paint is the best. It's the ultimate equaliser. But, the only real money to be made in paintball is the consumables. The number one consumable is the paint. Fields, manufacturers, and organisers won't like it.

But nobody listens to me.

I know how you feel. :rofl:

[Halliday]

All these arguments, new tech, new rules and ramped cheating would just be a moot point if they just went full-auto.

[SlartyBartFast]

All these arguments, new tech, new rules and ramped cheating would just be a moot point if they just went full-auto.

Honestly, ther's probably only one reason they won't. The insurance companies would never allow it.

[hitech]

I'd love to see you build something with a basic stamp that wouldn't be obvious even to an untrained eye that it didn't belong on a production board.

Since it won't be in the marker, it would be easy.

Remember, I'm taking about the eMag. The trigger is magnetic.

[teufelhunden]

At least cheating well is a skill... full auto is a joke. Every 12 year old, E-Spyder nub's dream come true... he too can shoot as fast as the pros!

[SlartyBartFast]

Since it won't be in the marker, it would be easy.

Remember, I'm taking about the eMag. The trigger is magnetic.

So, you're hoping that nobody ever shakes your hand or otherwise notices that big lump in your glove with the wires running down your wrist and arm to the battery pack.

So, your 'easy' cheat involves programming, board development, sewing, and spy like maneuvers to hide your equipment from any and all observation.

[hitech]

...And get pulled for shooting someone more than 3-4 times. The problem will solve itself.

You know, that might almost be enough by it'self. Regardless, I think THAT is a rule that should be enforced. PERIOD. But, that is another story.