We are getting screwed.

[v_3Sterns]

Scenario > Tourney

[TeamNausea]

One of the worst posts ever.^

[Lohman446]

The biggest problem with the X-mag was the fact that you could not buy one if you wanted to. There was a backorder list that was something like 11 months long. That was was just plain stupid marketing and rollout on AGDs part.

Also, all that was good about the X mags did not come from AGD...
The sweet body was owned by AGDE
The Cool option bodies were made by nicad

AGD made the trigger frame.. which was TERRIBLE and not up to par with ANYTHING else in its class And the Valve which ROCKS the Casbar


The move to senario might be good for AGD, time will tell. I do think that Senario play is a phase and will die out.

I am still of the mindset that woods/senario is a hobby and speedball (organized in a tourney or league format) is a sport like Softball, intermural football and the such.

The future of the sport rests on the shoulders of TV. When people watch shatner ball on OLN they see a drawn out, boring, foolish event. If they watch the world cup they will see fast paced action.

Say what you want but the true future of this sport is a derivitive of the current X-Ball format. And the hope of getting a REAL sport that can translate to TV viewership (X-ball is still laking some key parts of that)

I looked at all of these replies on this post and considered this one. First I think you're wrong on it, though I understand your viewpoint well enough. There are valid arguments as to why woodsball/scenario games will continue to bring in new players, and give tournament players a place to "retire" to... and I think those things will keep it large for the forseeable future. I could be wrong, and your argument has some valid points.

The problem I see with "entering" the tournament scene, unless your already there and big. Now AGD has fallen from its spot at the pinnacle of the tournament scene, so has WGP. It is not their markers, both companies make excellent markers that are as capable as any other marker out there.

Frankly, if your not SP, Bob Long, or Dye your not going to introduce a new marker into the tournament scene... not like they do. I dislike SP for business practices, but never doubt for a moment the value of the Shocker. For about $700 I can have the marker good enough to power some of the best teams out there. I can have a tournament level marker. Until the most recent assortment of Intimidators what was the difference in Timmies? Some milling and yet people flocked to them. And now we have Dye into the mix with the DM4. Face it, even WDP seems to be fading from the tournament scene. I own an E-mag, but if I were to pick a marker based only on attributes and value of the marker and not the company you would be hard pressed to convince me to not by a Shocker or an Impulse. If I had to have a marker "better" (read more expensive) I would look towards the DM4 or Timmy.

On other thing these markers offer that noone else dares. Defacto factory supported cheats. At PSP in Chicago after there was an annoucnement about "altered" programming to influence things in teh marker causing you lots of problems there was a line at the Empire tent... I can only assume to get boards reflashed. I am not saying that SP, Empire, or Dye are cheating, they are making the programming easy to understand (to some people) and easy to alter. Look at 4.0 for example - the coding is not readily available, and AGD has stated they dont want a general release of it, and for the most part it has nto been because the control the ability to flash. Lets say I made a Timmy programming (or a marker with a simple computer cable hookup) that had full auto issues after 50 shots, ramped velocity, and then settled down if allowed to sit for five seconds... it could easily be distributed and find its way onto markers.

I dont blame AGD for wanting no part of this. Lines like "Dye is a platinum sponoser, we like everything they make" when asking if C4 gear was legal at Chicago worry me. There is too much politics in the major tournaments right now. From watching one pro team yelling at refs from the sideline, and during games unchallenged by the rules meant to address this, to a general feeling I got from PSP that if a major sponsor did it it was ok... if your going to play into this market, play well. If your not going to play well... take what you can get, but why try. Unfortunately I equate marketing into the tournament scene with cheating. Some people have taken the stance you have to cheat to be competetive and they may be right. Some have said that may even be true but there not going to cheat, there going to play fair and get what they can. I consider AGDs answer to the tournament scene that. We'll take what we can get, but we are not playing politics. I applaude both stances, those willing to make the stand to not go into the market, adn those willing to play the game around the market and excel at it.

[WARPED1]

I actually work for SP... I swear

I did in '98..................

[Digits]

Yah righ, that's just what they're doing.

Between those "childish army man games" and rec players most of the paintball money lies. God forbid that a company didn't jump on the Dye Tourny bandwagon because of course we know that most players are competing in top level tournaments.

I always hear this dumb misconseption..

First of all.. The reason scenario and rec is so big is because thats where all the renters/first timers/kids with birthdays go to..

Second.. I have yet to see any FACTS supporting this information.. It seems it's just something an angry rec baller made up..

Third.. Gun sales.. (above $500) is HIGHLY favoured in the tournament scene.. AGD may apeal to some of the hardcore reccers/scenarioers.. But honestly, do you really believe there are more hardcore recballers then hardcore tourny players? No.. I'd put money on it that there isnt, the only reason rec and scenario is so big is because thats what all of the new comers play. Dropping $500 on a marker to someone whos not seriouse about paintball is a little excessive though, hence why I believe the majority of 'good' gun sales lays within the tourny scene.

Either way AGD gets screwed IMO.. All of the reccers that own guns buy spiders and tippmans.. Alot of them don't want to put down over $300 on a marker for something they consider a hobby..

But with that being said.. I think AGD will be coming back to the tournament scene.. I remember in one of Toms posts he said they will be coming back with a new name, new everything.. Even though no matter how you look at it, they wont be selling as many markers as DYE (tournament) or Tippman/Kingman (rec) for now.. I still think it was a smart move for them to go scenario.. Scenario ballers typically care about reliability over anything, else, while tourny ballers care about speed.. And it's obviouse that AGD guns are stronger in the reliability department..

But to me quoting the post I quoted.. If you were big into the tournament scene you would know that there is ALOT of money here... Just go to a tourny and take a look at how many DM4's are out there.. I bet DYE makes more money then Kingman, maybe even Tippman.. Just imagine how much there making off of a $1800 marker which is probablly costing them $200's max to make.

So in conclusion.. Money is in both scenes.. AGD didn't go rec because thats where all the money was.. They went rec because thats where they would be supported more-so.. Rec is big.. But so is tourny ball.

[WARPED1]

A few years ago, WARPIG released a study from one of the major publications that only 3% of the 8 million players a year play tournaments.

[TeamNausea]

Yes this maybe true but things have changed BIG TIME in a few years. And digits i totaly agree

[Digits]

ya how many of the 97% of those non tourny players were just one timers.. Or people that play like 4 times a year?? I'm guessing a huge chunk..

Plus that was a few years ago..

That 3% is probablly a bit higher now.. But even if it was the same it means nothing.. Tourny players typically play atleast twice a month, how often do the other 97% of the players play? Once a year, if that??

I bet you the tourny scene has more money in it now that i've seen the basis of the survey people are going by...

If it was the majority of games or money spent in paintball was not in the tourny scene, then that would be a legit survey.. But the fact that some people are assuming that recball has waaay more money than tourny ball in it is just ignorant.. That survey only says that out of 8 million people who played paintball that year only 3% of them played in tournies.. And I bet those 3% played multiple times while the majority of the 97% played once.

[Xyxyll]

Listen up guys. I love my as much as the next guy, but we have to realize that the direction AGD is taking with thier markers is disturbing. First the Xmag and Emag go, then the TAC ONE is introduced, then a sydarm...why? I bought a mag because I was tired of playing GI Joe in the woods. Now it seems that we are stuck playing with mechanicals. And the deadly wind frame may be fast, but still mech, so forget great features like adjustability. Whats going on? Is AGD dropping speedball in favor of childish army man games?

I'm sorry you feel this way tzustratagy, but I must say. Your reasoning is VERY ignorant. I think you should actually try a scenario game before you try and judge it.

[Xyxyll]

I always hear this dumb misconseption..

First of all.. The reason scenario and rec is so big is because thats where all the renters/first timers/kids with birthdays go to..

Second.. I have yet to see any FACTS supporting this information.. It seems it's just something an angry rec baller made up..

Third.. Gun sales.. (above $500) is HIGHLY favoured in the tournament scene.. AGD may apeal to some of the hardcore reccers/scenarioers.. But honestly, do you really believe there are more hardcore recballers then hardcore tourny players? No.. I'd put money on it that there isnt, the only reason rec and scenario is so big is because thats what all of the new comers play. Dropping $500 on a marker to someone whos not seriouse about paintball is a little excessive though, hence why I believe the majority of 'good' gun sales lays within the tourny scene.

Either way AGD gets screwed IMO.. All of the reccers that own guns buy spiders and tippmans.. Alot of them don't want to put down over $300 on a marker for something they consider a hobby..

But with that being said.. I think AGD will be coming back to the tournament scene.. I remember in one of Toms posts he said they will be coming back with a new name, new everything.. Even though no matter how you look at it, they wont be selling as many markers as DYE (tournament) or Tippman/Kingman (rec) for now.. I still think it was a smart move for them to go scenario.. Scenario ballers typically care about reliability over anything, else, while tourny ballers care about speed.. And it's obviouse that AGD guns are stronger in the reliability department..

But to me quoting the post I quoted.. If you were big into the tournament scene you would know that there is ALOT of money here... Just go to a tourny and take a look at how many DM4's are out there.. I bet DYE makes more money then Kingman, maybe even Tippman.. Just imagine how much there making off of a $1800 marker which is probablly costing them $200's max to make.

So in conclusion.. Money is in both scenes.. AGD didn't go rec because thats where all the money was.. They went rec because thats where they would be supported more-so.. Rec is big.. But so is tourny ball.

Yet you're leaving out the scenario scene. Most scenario players are older players who have the jobs and experience to know what's a good marker to get and have a thicker budget than tournament teenagers.

And recball is much bigger than tournyball. There is a lot of money in tournyball, but there is even more in entry-level recball. Ask Brass Eagle or Kingman. They're two of the richest companies in paintball, and they target beginners exclusively! We're not saying there's no money in tournaments, but there's simply more in recball.

I know there are more reasons Tom is concentrating on scenario now. We all had a great little chat at the tech class, and there's more to what it seems. You guys should really chill out. Tom is not abandoning tournament players, he's just specializing in another form of paintball right now.

[Magglerock]

OK, so AGD has committed to the scenario market

My question is, how's it going? Are sales up? At the last scenario game I went to , I didn't see a whole bunch of Tacs. In fact, I didn't see one. And as far as the market being "wide open", I guess you could say that - if you COMPLETELY ignored Tippman. Tippman has been selling unlimited accesories for the scenario player for about five years. I mean, how can you claim the Tac is a scenario gun, when it doesn't even have a stock option?

[Faddy]

But to me quoting the post I quoted.. If you were big into the tournament scene you would know that there is ALOT of money here... Just go to a tourny and take a look at how many DM4's are out there.. I bet DYE makes more money then Kingman, maybe even Tippman.. Just imagine how much there making off of a $1800 marker which is probablly costing them $200's max to make.

Sorry about the partial derail, but you're missing a bigger part of the picture here. I agree with you, to an extent. These companies that are making tourney markers are making a lot more per gun than Tippmann or Kingman (Spyder company). What's a 98 custom cost now, $150 or so? Probably cost 1/3 that to make. Regardless, the amounts aren't that important. Something to realize is, that although some of these electros might cost $200 to make, and sell for $1800, there's a lot more than just that $200 that the gun is paying for. There's advertising, sponsorships, paying for tech support, R&D, etc. That $200 a gun could easily get inflated to $500 a gun just with that. You also have to realize that $1800 is the retail price of the gun, the price that the company sells to the retailer is probably quite a bit cheaper. Now, assuming this logic on the tourney gun is flawed, consider this:

Tippmann's strategy isn't on making a high end, quality marker then marking the price up a bunch to make a ton per gun made. It's to produce and sell a ton of markers, at a low price, and make money from the quantity. If you think that they don't sell enough to make more money than say DYE, or SP or whoever, think about this for a minute. Practically everyone who has owned a paintball gun has owned a low end marker at some point. My first gun was a Spyder, everyone I knew owned a Tippmann or Spyder (or a knockoff of one of those guns) first. People who finally decide to purchase their own gun don't say, "Hmm, well paintball is pretty fun, I think I'll go ahead and buy that dm4." Of course they won't do that, they'll likely buy something in the less than $200 range. The reason they are called entry level markers is because they are the perfect gun for someone just getting into paintball. Tippmann doesn't have to spend a lot of money on advertising, because word of mouth travels very fast. If someone asked me what a good gun to buy as their first, I'd say 98 custom or Spyder. That's something practically anyone would say. Another thing is, I would be willing to bet that most fields use Tippmann's as their rentals. New player goes out and rents his first time. Plays with a Tippmann, then decides to buy a gun. Well, he shot a Tippmann and liked it, so most likely that's what he'll pick up. For those who want to upgrade their 98's, practically all the upgrades for that gun come from Tippmann themselves. You want flatline barrel, RT trigger, electro frame, etc? Gotta buy it from Tippmann. The upgrade path for Tippmann's is built in such a way that almost gets rid of the middle man. Money in the bank for Tippmann.

When you take into account the market share of tourney vs. rec/scenario ball, there's almost no way a tourney gun maker could make more money than Tippmann. Also consider that Tippmann is one of only 4 companies to still be in business in paintball since the 80's. In that time, they've even shut down their sewing machine plant in order to focus more on paintball. Dennis Tippmann is definately doing something right.

I would be honestly surprised if any tourney gun maker makes more money than Tippmann.

[minimagjim]

About not marketing to Woodsballers/scenario ball is just ridiculous. My field i go to is all about only playing woodsball. The field owners dont want hot shot speedballers to come and rough up families or Newb's who are trying the game out for the first time.

There are about 100 or so people there on average who are members and none have a electro super marker, they all have tippmanns or Military knock off markers (one guy converts mags into M16 style guns). None of these guys are bad either they are as good and as skilled as any of the tourney/speedball players. They just know woods better! And they know what they need to play. Why get a Electro marker that costs $2000 that will break down or is unfriendly to WATER, DIRT, and BRANCHES. Everyones gun gets a punishment when you play woods, a pretty anno will just get scratched up.

I think it would be awesome to have AGD be the front runner to the woods/scenario arena. i could just see it know all tippmann users running around with there own TAC tricked with scopes and home made stocks. And everyone able to strip down there guns in the field.

[RenagadeOfFunk]

...There are about 100 or so people there on average who are members and none have a electro super marker, they all have tippmanns or Military knock off markers (one guy converts mags into M16 style guns).

What about me?...I think i am the only one who goes with a "high-end" gun (Alias)...and i think there are over 300 members...but there is always 100 people there...

Why get a Electro marker that costs $2000...

...cause i like when i can push back 10 people at once in the woods, by myself

[minimagjim]

well thats true mister fancy pants Alias, but the point is the majority dont have uber guns!