For everyone that says that 15BPS limit is slowing them down

[RamboPreacher]

I want to see video and soundgraph analysis of a "legal" non rebound marker firing at a sustained 15BPS for 5 seconds...

As for "well I mean 15BPS for a two ball snap shot" - rebound features don't come into play until the 4th shot, the first three are at whatever speed you pull the trigger (at least on the Shocker).

Edit: Do I expect someone can do it? Yes I do. Do I think that 99% of the people who are whining about being slowed down can do it? Not a chance.

I tried but the graph was flawed, the audio ripped from the vid clip was so fast that it was impossible to distinguish the shots (they seemed to overlap, but the mechanics of the cam make it physicaly impossible for more than one shat at any given moment in time). though I calculated a sustained 60 bps for 10 seconds (it was actually less than 10 seconds, since the hopppers ran dry at about 8-9 seconds) - but, oh - you are probably talking about non-mechanical markers with only one barrel, sorry. :rofl:

at LEAST 60 bps (halos) sustained to empty three hoppers:

and yes, this is legal in many scenario and rec games. (and even some tournaments when they forget to rule on multiple barrels).

[trains are bad]

The last 5 man local stuff that I watched, was duked out from the 5 back bunkers on both sides. To say that copious amounts of paint were used for nearly every elimination would be an understatement at best. What's worse, it was boring as all hell....Games progressed in a predictable pattern: Break ---> Stand and shoot for 5 mins ---> Eliminate four guys on the other team ---> bunker out the last back guy. Over and over and over and over again.

This is what I can't stand about local tournament paintball. That and promoters putting the flag out in the open where you can't get it without eliminating the other team....at that point why not play elimination? More often than not local tournaments seem to be set up for max paint profits more than quality of game.

Well, around here at least, bouncing EBlades, run away Timmies, bouncing Shockers, and cheating Matrices are the order of business.

Likewise, on a local level bounce is not enforced IME.

still maintain that the VAST majority of players are not shooting at 15BPS sustained at this time (legally) and that this new "limit with ramping allowed" will put more paint in the air than what was there in all but a few circumstances.

Agree 100%

I've said it before, and I'll say it again --> If you want to squelch the ROF wars, make everyone run a revy.

Problem 1. seems awfully nice to brass eagle I'm sure! a little biased?

2.What about my warp? Think about that a bit before you answer. Telling me I can't run my warp is like asking people to run a remote, or endo drop or some other ergonomically drastic change to thier marker setup. I have been warped for years, you might as well make me use a slingshot as expect me to change my setup that drastically.

GUESS WHAT! I thought a great solution to limit ROF, make games more strategic and dynamic, and make enforement dead simple, without regulating equipment at all.... limit paint....like 5 years ago...never happen though....

[CoolHand]

Problem 1. seems awfully nice to brass eagle I'm sure! a little biased?

2.What about my warp? Think about that a bit before you answer. Telling me I can't run my warp is like asking people to run a remote, or endo drop or some other ergonomically drastic change to thier marker setup. I have been warped for years, you might as well make me use a slingshot as expect me to change my setup that drastically.

GUESS WHAT! I thought a great solution to limit ROF, make games more strategic and dynamic, and make enforement dead simple, without regulating equipment at all.... limit paint....like 5 years ago...never happen though....

Problem one is a non-problem. Basically every loader manufacturer out there already makes a gravity feed agitating hopper, so there is no bias there.

Problem two sounds like a personal problem to me (no offense, the following is not directed at you personaly). It is not the responsibility of the promoter to make sure that your favorite marker set up is legal. That's not their job, its your job. Every racing series I have run in has had zero (0) qualms about making a new motor rule that turns my $12,000 race motor into a rather expensive paper weight. Paintballers need to suck it up and realize that the world is not built around their personal preference. If you don't like the rules, don't play there. And besides, if you put a revy on that warp, its not gonna feed any faster than anyone else's revy. You may get a two ball burst over 13 or 14, but gravity will win eventually.

I agree that limited paint is the best option, but well never mind . . . .

[Duzzy]

I think the problem with the limited paint is that it is where a lot of the money is made.

The guys at the feild I play with use about 600 paintballs per bunker move and that is one of the things that keeps the field going. So I seriously doubt this will ever catch on. If you want to make it work then make paint at tournaments more expensive, this way profits (if any) don't take a huge hit, you get your paint limit,


(In case you are wondering bunkering by the majority is done like so... Players A, B, and C start to fire at player Z. A and B hit the right and left side respectively while C hits the side that he is going to bunker from. C starts walking up in the middle of the two paint streams. As soon as C approaches Z's bunker A or B will stop firing and switch to the other side. Now you have Z waiting to get bunkered, A and B shooting at one side and C shooting at the other. C starts walking around, shooting the whole time so that if Z does pop out, he will get shot. C bunkers Z, Z starts complaining about overshooting, and then they have a rematch. This is done with different numbers of players but you get the idea...)

My idea is that instead of limiting it to a set number for everyone, mix it up. 13bps for the lowest level, 15ps for the next, and possibly unlimited for pro.

Want to make it more fun? Get rid of all the cheater boards, have every manufacturer make a semi only board and put a certain seal on it. If a gun has a cheater baord with a "legal seal" on it, ban the player and send the manufacturer a warning. If they get too many warnings make that brand of board illegal to use for some time period. Manufacturers won't want to take the sales hit and so on the semi-only boards they do produce the "seal" will probably be laser engarved or part of the board so it cannot be removed.

Want more fun? Give a paint limit as well, only do it backwards. 1180/13 for the lowest, 900/15 for the middle, and 620/UL for the Pros (given in paintball carrying capacity/balls per second cap).

Just my lengthy 2 cents, but hey, it might inspire...

[JKR]

Here's some math for you (and I'm no math wiz so check it...)

Paint, shot a speed of 300fps, at a rate of 20 bps should mean there is roughly a 15 foot gap between each ball

Paint, shot a speed of 300fps, at a rate of 15 bps should mean there is roughly a 19.8 foot gap between each ball

I determinde this by dividing 1 (second) by X (number of BPS) and then multiplying the result by 300. (I.E. There at 15 bps there is a shot fired every .066 seconds, .066 of 300FPS is 19.8) The math works with 2 bps

I'm not picking on you personally (although I guess it's going to seem like it)- but I've seen opinions like yours posted by others as well - and basically, I think it's silly and feel compelled at this point to say so. Paintball is not a game about who has practiced drumming their fingers the most in homeroom (although I understand that this statement doesn't apply specifically to you it does to most of the 15bps complainers) it is a tactics based game that requires many different skills to win. If someone thinks that the extra 5 BPS they have over a guy who can only hit 12-15 currently is the difference between winning and losing - well then I suggest there might be other areas of that persons game that can be worked on that will provide better results then continuing to practice trigger walking speed.

For all of the guys that we normal people are "jealous" of - maybe you should try looking at the new rule as "Great! if I can hit 20bps then 15 will be no trouble at all which leaves me free to concentrate on other things."

Sorry to bust your chops, but I don't and won't believe that ANYONE can reliable hit 15+ without electronic "assistance" and even if I'm wrong how much is it that extra 3-4 BPB an edge to your game? I say not much (especiall basde on the above) - and everyone I've ever seen trying to go REALLY fast has to concentrate on that so much they have precious few cycles left over for anything else anyhow - kinda playing into the old "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" thing...

Again - sorry to bust on you, I'm just tired of all of the 15bps arguing - the industry did what it had to do to *try* to avoid law suits that could shut the sport down altogether. Personally, I don't think they did enough - but that's my opinion.

-Calvin

Post of the thread goes to...Cledford!

I don't believe anyone can hit a sustained, non-assisted 15 bps either. And if this is what our competitive players aspire to, might I suggest a good red dot sight!

[68magOwner]

any one of my teammates will vouch for me shooting over 15 with preety much anything i pick up, but, as are you, i am willing to bet that 80% of people at teh field cant shoot 15 legally, 15 is real fast, ask anyone who has practiced with the new 15bps programming (i have, not slow at all, not as fast as some guys i play with, but, not so slow its actually gonna make a difference)

[Evil Bob]

Limited paint games are alot of fun, you still have the high ROF for laneing and supresive fire, you just eliminate a great deal of the sit, spray, and pray.

I have to agree, watching the local twibs play is sad, its all about how fast they can shoot, they almost never move until one side has a clear numerical advantage. They make the initial move at the start to their primaries, and that's where it stops until one side has lost a few members, they just sit and dump lots of paint. The problem is they perceive that this is how the game is played at the highest levels because this is what all the gun manufacturers promote... "speed", "fastest", etc. Another part of the problem is that this is also the easiest route to take, the artificial crutch that cheater boards give mediocre players reinforces this mentality as they're able to shoot faster then they are capable of doing without said cheats.

These guys would benefit the most from a limited paint format, they would learn more about movement, supporting fire, and teamwork. But sadly, I must agree 100% that a large factor behind this prevailing mentality is the fields/promoters trying to make a profit through paint sales.

Gun cheats are so rampant that the are only two ways to deal with them to make it fair for everyone:

1) Allow everyone to use them. We all know its impossible to catch the all at this time so we may as well just say "screw it" and let them use the cheats.

or...

2) Physically control the playing hardware: The folks running the show provide the markers that are played with, they are handed out as the players enter the field of play and collected as they exit the field.

-Evil Bob

[peewee]

My team back in the 90's was one of the driving forces of the limited paint in the pacific northwest pro/am series ran by Bonebrake. It made it more cost effective for teams just starting out & the games were usually very competative. I really call bull on people pulling 15 + pbs those people are very few & far between. When I go to the field anymore evry kid with an E99 says that they are pulling +15 bps. I have seen a few people that were insane twitchy. But truthfully most people cant pull more than 10 at best.

[MTU Paintball]

My issue is with safety. What if some kid happens to lose his mask during a game and happens to get shot with a ramped board? The shooter will most likely have two or three balls in the air that he/she has no control over. If a bps cap can control a thing such as this, I say by all means.

On a minor note, I believe a 15 bps limit will open up the tournament scene to people who otherwise would not have given it a chance. Call it a leveling of the playing field. In chess, one person does not start with two queens, so why should someone who is able to afford a high dollar gun (ie ramped board) be given the advantage?

[Enemy]

the main reason i am against the 15 bps cap isnt mainly because it takes away from the few that can do 15+ but more that it was a sidshow tape job to the fact that everyone gave up on cheating technology!! it does rob from the game i mean you think that people are going to move now that they dont even have to pull the friggen trigger!! 15 bps cap i can deal with but 15 bps cap with unlimited modes i cant its just not right!!! so what everyone else is slowed down now they dont even have to try to walk the trigger all they have to do is pull of the first 3 shots then hold and everyone is all like yeah that will make the game better!! if all i had to do to hit 15 was pull a total 4 times then odds are im not thinking about moving to much!!

[RRfireblade]

I don't believe anyone can hit a sustained, non-assisted 15 bps either. And if this is what our competitive players aspire to, might I suggest a good red dot sight!

You guys are hysterical.

First, you all have never seen anyone shot over 15bps but......you think the game will be much better is you weren't allowed to shoot over 15bps.

I have to agree, watching the local twibs play is sad, its all about how fast they can shoot, they almost never move until one side has a clear numerical advantage.

I'll take those kinds of teams on any day of the week. Please....make more of them. The problem there still has nothing to do with ROF,that is simply 2 teams who refuse to take control of the field.They won't stand a chance against any decent competition.

[CoolHand]

I'll take those kinds of teams on any day of the week. Please....make more of them. The problem there still has nothing to do with ROF,that is simply 2 teams who refuse to take control of the field.They won't stand a chance against any decent competition.

I like that quote of yourself in the middle. (EDIT: Damnit, it didn't reproduce it. )

Around here, I'd say less than 25% of the people who say they can pull 15 could actually do it on a marker that didn't add shots or bounce. I can do it once in a very great while, but only when I really get my twitch on. :rofl:

Eric, the captain of my house team however, can. That boy can shoot 17-18 on just about anything you hand him, and will run a stock boarded vision Imp at ~15bps all day long (I've got a vid floating around here someplace with him shooting my vert framed Imp, in which he hit 17 about three times for a full second each time). He's just got fast fingers.

My point was that the kids around here are shooting in the low to mid 20's, but it ain't from fast fingers. That's why I think the cap will help, if for no other reason than there will be an upper limit to how fast they can cheat.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I just don't get why people seem to feel that they cant compete with a 15bps capped gun. Will it really take SO MUCH away from your game? Putting everyone on even ground (in terms of firepower) is the right thing to do, regardless of wether you personally like it.

Besides, 15 bps AFA (or not) is SUPER FAST as it is. I can't imagine how much paint I would shoot per day if I shot anywhere near that fast!

[RRfireblade]

My point was that the kids around here are shooting in the low to mid 20's, but it ain't from fast fingers. That's why I think the cap will help, if for no other reason than there will be an upper limit to how fast they can cheat.

Oh I completely agree about the lack of truly fast fingers.That's why I think the cap is BS. It's not going to stop the cheaters but only accept cheating as legal behavior.

And I still say that if you can't enforce 'bounce' how the heck are you going to enforce an on field ROF cap?

[Lohman446]

Besides, 15 bps AFA (or not) is SUPER FAST as it is. I can't imagine how much paint I would shoot per day if I shot anywhere near that fast!

Remember kiddos 15BPS = 900/minute equals about $22.5 per minute of paint you are shooting (depending on what you pay for it - I went with $50 a case as a normal enough number). We should start rating it in $$ per minute rather than BPS.