So, you can buy a NEW Mini Now?

[Lohman446]

Preface: Again I respect the moderators, I am probably taking a single comment and blowing it out of proportion. When I knew I was going to IAO this year I chose to go with an AO team for a reason, I appreciate AO, I value the discussion, and I appreciate the work of those that make it possible.


Your forgot option three Sam - make it go away. Make anything that is not positive go away, ignore it, stick your head in the sand, and hope the industry does not leave you in the dust. Make sure it is ignored by others to, simply make those comments go away.

And another little thing that is starting to piss me off. If you decide that you want to come here and bash Mags, your post will be deleted. I will do it personally. This is a mag forum for mag owners and other gun owners alike. We dont bash other guns around here so neither will any of you bash mags. Take it to your "other " forums and do it there. If you haven't already realized what is going on, there are new owners at AGD and they deserve the same help from all of us to keep them rolling along. Its a tough enough market out there without having retards bashing your products on you own damn forum.

I guess thats the option we are taking on this forum, good luck with that.

[Lohman446]

That's just it, what is poor efficiency? Does a mag shoot a case? Certianly not, I would argue that when compared with 90-99% of other makes in the market the difference in effiency is less than 10%, well tuned cockers and vikings/excals aside.

Honestly if efficiency mattered guys wouldnt have bought trixies and shockers, which for most of thier production life were the worst on the planet. I think the efficiency argument as well as "shooting deeper" is little more than displaced dislike for an otherwise great product. If you dont like the design then so sayso, if a mag is ugly to you or it doesnt have enough upgrades then state opinion as such. think people need to be alittle more honest with themsleves rather than making up a reason.

The thing is, Shockers have made improvements to efficiency, or at least addressed the issue. I would assume the newest DMxS are more efficient than the old (though I'm not sure). These companies are willing to move forward, to say "this is what we need to work on" rather than looking at potential buyers and tellign them "that's not an issue". I would like to know what has been done to make this marker better than the other marker I am using. Do I expect they are great steps, or justify the cost, not at all. They are steps though, and I think thats why AGD slowly fell behind. You don't take giant leaps forward as a general rule, you take little steps. If you don't take little steps pretty soon everyone is way ahead of you. The tortoise and the hair, steady, slow progress most often wins the race, seldom does one see anything revolutionary.

[hitech]

I would think go the other way. Like 8"

With level 10 the dump chamber pressures are greater. Therefore, when the ball reaches 10 inches (the level 7 optimum length) there is more pressure behind the ball. The paintball would continue to accelerate, since there is more pressure. A longer barrel should produce higher velocities at the same chamber pressure.

Additionally, the main inefficiency in the 'mag is the fact that the bolt is still forward (and venting air from the chamber) after the ball is gone. A longer barrel will not only use this pressure to accelerate the paintball, but may shorten the time the chamber vents.

[hitech]

1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

Not on mine!

[GT]

Preface: Again I respect the moderators, I am probably taking a single comment and blowing it out of proportion. When I knew I was going to IAO this year I chose to go with an AO team for a reason, I appreciate AO, I value the discussion, and I appreciate the work of those that make it possible.

Your forgot option three Sam - make it go away. Make anything that is not positive go away, ignore it, stick your head in the sand, and hope the industry does not leave you in the dust. Make sure it is ignored by others to, simply make those comments go away.

I guess thats the option we are taking on this forum, good luck with that.

Lo,
Dont take all of this personally, I think most of us are tired of hearing the same old crap. By and large the markers we can buy today are far better than those produced even 5 years ago. All of them atleast shoot 300fps. The issue I have is when opinions are spouted as fact with little numeric analysis. If you dont like the gun because it isnt LP enough, fine. If you dont like the gun because it is inefficeint, fine, but dont in the same breath buy a shocker with nearly the same shots per fill nor provide me with a definition of inefficiency.

Opinion based in fact is always welcome, even it is contrary to the product. I personally think the E/Xmag software sucks because I can get it flashed with "cheater ware." That is an issue I have and chose not to purchase an emag, right now

[GT]

The thing is, Shockers have made improvements to efficiency, or at least addressed the issue.

when did the first PVI shocker come out? '94~95? Not only did they fail at solving the problem with the shoe box they completly dumped the gun and built something else, which is the same as every other spool valved gun. All this from one of the largest pb compaines on the planet. how many shots per fill (68) does the new bolt shocker get 1400~1600. Agd has been doing that since '91.

[Lohman446]

Lo,
Dont take all of this personally, I think most of us are tired of hearing the same old crap. By and large the markers we can buy today are far better than those produced even 5 years ago. All of them atleast shoot 300fps. The issue I have is when opinions are spouted as fact with little numeric analysis. If you dont like the gun because it isnt LP enough, fine. If you dont like the gun because it is inefficeint, fine, but dont in the same breath buy a shocker with nearly the same shots per fill nor provide me with a definition of inefficiency.

Opinion based in fact is always welcome, even it is contrary to the product. I personally think the E/Xmag software sucks because I can get it flashed with "cheater ware." That is an issue I have and chose not to purchase an emag, right now

I don't take it as offensive. Want to hear something funny? I couldn't care less about efficiency for my use. I carry a 68 tank because of size, I use 4500 so some idiot at a fill station doesn't fill a 3K to 45, and I carry three pods on the field. I only play at established fields with my semis (woodball is played stock with 12 grams) and I refill after every game as a matter of practice. For all the complaints I have ordered a Devilmag. I do see though, how efficiency, is a concern for many people.

Its not that I think the mag is a bad marker, nor would I really have gotten into this thread. Tuna's quote (which I still think I'm probably taking at face value and blowing it out of proportion to what he said, rather than what he meant) is what got my attention.

I just don't like the idea of dismissing, and devaluing the negatives of a mag. They exist. Do they make the mag an overall bad marker? Not at all. Could the mag be better? Most definetly. Thats the point I am trying to make. If we ignore anything but the positives, we don't try to improve, if we don't try to improve.. it eventually causes us problems. You can replace "us" and "we" with "AGD" and be more accurate in that statement of course.

I have no quantitative data on shots per fills of markers out there, nor would it matter to me in buying one, but there have been attempts to get more by many companies. And I beleive, that there are people who buy markers that care about efficiency. I'll look through the forums later and see what I can find though.

[SlartyBartFast]

effeciency, yes

consistency, well i consider that more of a upgrade feature unless your shooting an AKA marker.(i view AKA regs as the best) and since your reg is responsible for your consitency for the most part, if you dont like it you can always just upgrade it. except for AGD guns which have the reg built into the valve. <----hmmm i got myself thinking now

The only thing a paintball marker can do to improve accuracy and precision is consistency.

Why relegate that to "upgrade"? You actually find it acceptable to have to pay more to have something work well?

The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).

[JMAN]

The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).

What issue? I'm new to Mags.

[GT]

What issue? I'm new to Mags.

me too!!!

:rofl:

[JimmyBeam]

The Mag is as consistent as they come (although there is the issue of chrono procedure....).

true, they are almost the perfect marker, which is why i dont get it. they got a damn good product, but why did they stop short and not go for perfection? was effeciency not an issue back then?

maybe one of you who are more knowleged in this area could help me out. why do mags use so much air? what in thier design calls for the release of the extra air? could it be controlled more? or would that hinder performance?

[hitech]

With level 10 the dump chamber pressures are greater. Therefore, when the ball reaches 10 inches (the level 7 optimum length) there is more pressure behind the ball. The paintball would continue to accelerate, since there is more pressure. A longer barrel should produce higher velocities at the same chamber pressure.

Additionally, the main inefficiency in the 'mag is the fact that the bolt is still forward (and venting air from the chamber) after the ball is gone. A longer barrel will not only use this pressure to accelerate the paintball, but may shorten the time the chamber vents.

Also, generally speaking, the faster you get the paintball up to speed the less air you use. This is because you have less volume to fill (all the area behind the paintball). The farther down the barrel is has to go, the more area you have to fill. The greater the area, the more air required to obtain the same pressure. And it is the pressure that accelerates the paintball.

[JimmyBeam]

k gotcha. thanks

[SlartyBartFast]

What issue? I'm new to Mags.

The question of how much "shoot-up" really exists and at what ROF.

[SlartyBartFast]

you dont always get a good 4.5k fill. say they are only filling to 2.5 that day. so by your reasoning, thats ok......??!!!

correct me if im wrong but your only going to get a usuable 1.5 out of that. and 1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

Now you're talking another ball game.

Is the problem the marker or the crappy fills?

For 1.5k to be a hopper of balls, What tank you using? A 30cu.in.? :rofl: