So, you can buy a NEW Mini Now?

[shartley]

[Wheelman]

I forgot you had a mustang, but I basically used it as an example because I'm in love with it (not yours specifically) but I may have my facts wrong. I know when I talk cars with my friends and we are looking to high performance I don't think gas mileage has ever come up, of course these are the same guys that buy new tires every other week too. oh well

[Raven001]

[Lohman446]

Look at it this way, do people gripe because the Mustang GT is a gas hog? No, because they know for the high performance of the car the gas usage is a necessary evil. Can't the same be said here? Call it a necessary evil if you will and be done with it.

It is not a necessary evil though. My Shocker, Ion, countless DMxs, Timmies, etc get better efficiency and have arguably equal if not better performance.

[shartley]

I forgot you had a mustang, but I basically used it as an example because I'm in love with it (not yours specifically) but I may have my facts wrong. I know when I talk cars with my friends and we are looking to high performance I don't think gas mileage has ever come up, of course these are the same guys that buy new tires every other week too. oh well

[SlartyBartFast]

People also seem to forget the fact that the valve is patented. I would love to take this valve and make it better. But it doesn't belong to me. And the only one who could do that would be Tom...and he is gone. So that's it. That will be as far as this valve goes.

You can patent improvements to existing patents. It doesn't take Tom. You'd undoubtably have to pay royalties, but you'd have to pay R&D to develop from the ground up.

How many shots do you guys need? My last mag I got around 1500 per fill and my emag could shoot down to around 600-650psi. If you need more shots per fill buy a bigger tank or a new gun.

Yes, please give some numbers. All the belly-aching and complaining is just subjecive drivel unless you can actually talk about FACTS.

People complain to no end about efficiency, pressure left in the tank, etc., etc.

But, Manike and others would come on and show that they operate their mags at around 600-650psi and would be ignored.

What performance are other guns operating at low pressures and "emptying" the tank getting? How many shots TOTAL are they firing?

It is not a necessary evil though. My Shocker, Ion, countless DMxs, Timmies, etc get better efficiency and have arguably equal if not better performance.

Really? Numbers please.

Yet, once again, paintballers as a whole will be shown to be far more interested in rumour and hype than hard evidence or experimentation.

The problem I see is that many don't have a clue about the compromises required when building a product and then tuning it.

In the car world, most people understand the basic concept of tuning a car for either performance OR effeciency (until the advent of advanced VVT systems). Or the idea of detuning or limiting an engine to improve reliability. In paintball however, most are ignorant of the action/reaction of their tuning and modification efforts or the compromises of each marker design.

Also, the paintball world is filled with hormone addled idiots who clamour for "upgrades". Who the heck "upgrades" a Ferrari, a Maclaren, Viper, Lamborgini, or other top end car? Sure some do, but few complain about "upgradeability". Heck even few the ricers and moders who colour their cars, add body kits, and electronics claim their work is "upgrades". It's just mods.

In paintball, players buy the latest thing, all the "upgrades", and end up with a 1000$+ spyder or spyder clone when they could have bought any nuber of high-end markers and had better right out of the box. For the Mag, I can only shake my head at all the idiots who clamoured for the X-Valve and proclaimed the great "upgrade" when they already had RT valves.

They are also dazzled by shiney new things and adamant in their delusions based on brand loyalty and opinions based on prejudice and rumour.

The same people who argue the Mag is ancient, that the design is old, that the Emag was a cobbled together electro. They're the same who say little to nothing about the ancient cobbled together design of the Autococker or the many different Electro-cocker designs. Nothing new in Syders since Kingman released the first one.

I think that's what gets on the nerves of AGD supporters.

[hitech]

My first semi was conversion from Glenn back in '91. I wanted a 68 automag, but could barely afford the conversion. And Glenn was the local guy.

[Lohman446]

Yes, please give some numbers. All the belly-aching and complaining is just subjecive drivel unless you can actually talk about FACTS.

People complain to no end about efficiency, pressure left in the tank, etc., etc.

But, Manike and others would come on and show that they operate their mags at around 600-650psi and would be ignored.

What performance are other guns operating at low pressures and "emptying" the tank getting? How many shots TOTAL are they firing?

Really? Numbers please.

You would think for all the times I ask for quantitative analalysis that I would have it when I made a statement. I don't - next time I'm playing with an X-valved mag I'll make it a point to pay attention to numbers more. For now its quantitative. Are you honestly suggesting that a mag is as efficient as - say a timmy or a shocker? If you honestly beleive that then I will admit that I may be wrong, and take time, someday, to get the numbers to see. I will admit my perceptions, without numbers, may be wrong.

Yet, once again, paintballers as a whole will be shown to be far more interested in rumour and hype than hard evidence or experimentation.

The problem I see is that many don't have a clue about the compromises required when building a product and then tuning it.

In the car world, most people understand the basic concept of tuning a car for either performance OR effeciency (until the advent of advanced VVT systems). Or the idea of detuning or limiting an engine to improve reliability. In paintball however, most are ignorant of the action/reaction of their tuning and modification efforts or the compromises of each marker design.

Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example. We are not discussing a higher FPS per shot and thus getting less efficiency. I mean, 454 efficiency sucks if you are going to do nothing but go back and forth from work at 70MPH. Yet all a any marker does (or should do) is fire paintballs at 300FPS at whatever you pull the trigger - teh same as any of the "super" markers So the mag is not some super performer when compared to them to give it an excuse for poor efficiency (arguable if it exists) in my mind.

[JimmyBeam]

my mag could of gotten alot more shots off a fill if it were to go deeper into the tank. but right around 1k psi, it starting acting up. and thats 1k psi worth of shots i could have gotten. my new marker shoots until there is about 150 psi is left.

[hitech]

I can only shake my head at all the idiots who clamoured for the X-Valve and proclaimed the great "upgrade" when they already had RT valves.

[SlartyBartFast]

my mag could of gotten alot more shots off a fill if it were to go deeper into the tank. but right around 1k psi, it starting acting up. and thats 1k psi worth of shots i could have gotten. my new marker shoots until there is about 150 psi is left.

To make a change to how "deep" into the tank the marker can fire is no small change. It would mean a redesign of the entire AIR valve and bolt.

Also how "deep" you can shoot may be completely meaningless. Do a search for the many efficiency threads. I've made the point before.

What is important is how many shots per tank you get. how much air left is irrelevant unless you're getting poor low pressure fills.

How many shots have you made with your new marker with 150psi left and how many shots have you made with your mag once the tank is at 900-1000psi?

[SlartyBartFast]

Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example. We are not discussing a higher FPS per shot and thus getting less efficiency.

But we ARE talking about higher recharge rates, or more reactive triggers. Consider the difference between tuning for low speed torque or high top speed in a car. Or tuning for fast acceleration to 100 compared to maximum fuel efficiency at 100.

Kind of annoying to get the demand for data thrown back at ya huh?

I'm not saying that the mag is necessarily efficient. But without numbers, you can't tell if the difference is significant or worth attacking.

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

[GT]

You would think for all the times I ask for quantitative analalysis that I would have it when I made a statement.

? Come on Lo do a search,
I know I have made more than a few threads about mags eff. Tune your lvlX, run and adj. tank, use good paint, and a barrel that isnt all full of holes.

Are you telling me then that you cannot have performance and efficiency in the same marker? I don't think it is the same as a car, I think its a bad example.

Ever drive a 450 hp civic that gets 30 mpg and drive it to work everyday? Anything is possible, but look at the expense invovled. How much does a featherlight or turtle E2 cocker cost? Both well tuned will get you 2k+ on a 68/4500 however each will run atleast 1.5k+ as apposed to a 900 dollar emag

[Lohman446]

But we ARE talking about higher recharge rates, or more reactive triggers. Consider the difference between tuning for low speed torque or high top speed in a car. Or tuning for fast acceleration to 100 compared to maximum fuel efficiency at 100.

Let me give the mag the fastest recharge rate in the world (I don't beleive it, but lets just give it). If all you can shoot is 15BPS (or whatever) having a 32 per second recharge rate does not give you better performance, though it would allow it. I still don't see it as a defense for poor efficiency, which may or may not exist. If all I am using my Chevy 454 for is crusiing at 70MPH then I don't have a good reason for its 6MPG. I can come up with reasons, "I like it" which is all I would need, the same as a mag, but they are not logical defenses.

[SlartyBartFast]

, but they are not logical defenses.

Perhaps. But every other marker out their is marketed and hyped with the justification of their price being the capability to outperform.

I've had the argument with Manike many times. He always argued that it's all about whether you're pushing the marker to it's limits or not.

The underlying argument of 15bps at 300fps, why have more? Destroys the reason for most markers on the market.