So, you can buy a NEW Mini Now?

[Lohman446]

Perhaps. But every other marker out their is marketed and hyped with the justification of their price being the capability to outperform.

I've had the argument with Manike many times. He always argued that it's all about whether you're pushing the marker to it's limits or not.

The underlying argument of 15bps at 300fps, why have more? Destroys the reason for most markers on the market.

But are we not anti-hype. Or is this along with the new rule, can bash anything but mags. I can also use hype but only for mags? Mags are a great marker, for what they are... but that does not mean it does not have negative attributes either.

And frankly, in my opinion, paintball marker pricing is stupid. I can buy a Kimber for what I pay for a Shocker...

[GT]

I still don't see it as a defense for poor efficiency, which may or may not exist.

That's just it, what is poor efficiency? Does a mag shoot a case? Certianly not, I would argue that when compared with 90-99% of other makes in the market the difference in effiency is less than 10%, well tuned cockers and vikings/excals aside.

Honestly if efficiency mattered guys wouldnt have bought trixies and shockers, which for most of thier production life were the worst on the planet. I think the efficiency argument as well as "shooting deeper" is little more than displaced dislike for an otherwise great product. If you dont like the design then so sayso, if a mag is ugly to you or it doesnt have enough upgrades then state opinion as such. think people need to be alittle more honest with themsleves rather than making up a reason.

[Beemer]

Really

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

Ya but I need 14" or more so I can move the air bunkers.

I looked all over and I couldnt find a 10 inch that didnt have holes in it, why is that? Or did I miss it somewhere.

It has to be that I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing with all these long butt barrels.

[Lohman446]

Where as I would argue that there is a knee jerk reaction by many to say "does not" or "is not" if anything less than positive about a mag is said. Remember, I own a mag, I ahve shot several, but they have there own negative issues, the same as Shockers have negatives, and every other marker out there. My only gripe is that the mag could have been more than what it was... and AGD had the resources, and the knowledge, to produce a better marker, in my opinion. I don't fault them for not, I don't know there business enough to do that, its just one of those... wish it had been things.

[hitech]

The pathetic thing is that the Mag probably gains most in efficiency by using the correct length barrel and not a pathetic super ported 2 piece.

[hitech]

Ya but I need 14" or more so I can move the air bunkers.

I'm betting that with the level 10, a 14 inch effective length barrel is what you need. The problem is trying to find one. Anyone have one, anyone, anyone...

[Beemer]

I would think go the other way. Like 8"

[JimmyBeam]

Also how "deep" you can shoot may be completely meaningless. Do a search for the many efficiency threads. I've made the point before.

What is important is how many shots per tank you get. how much air left is irrelevant unless you're getting poor low pressure fills.

you dont always get a good 4.5k fill. say they are only filling to 2.5 that day. so by your reasoning, thats ok......??!!!

correct me if im wrong but your only going to get a usuable 1.5 out of that. and 1.5k psi on a mag is what....a hoppers worth of paint?

[Gunga]

Unfortunately it's far easier for a multibillion corporate giant like Ford to redesign/improve/change (for better or worse) a car like a Mustang. Certainly it costs a ton in money & labor to redesign a car. Redesigning the various flavors of Mag valve woudn't cost nearly as much but it does cost a lot. AGD isn't a huge company by any stretch of the imagination and they probably would redesign the valve...if they could afford it. The efficiency is what it is, positive or negative. Alas, AGD is hardly Ford and it is unlikely that any valve redesign is in the future. Give the efficency thing a rest. It's not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Personally, I don't have a beef with the efficiency at all. There's this cool little invention that's on my air tank. I think it's called a pressure gauge. I look at it now and then so I don't run out of air. Refill as necessary. What efficency problem?

As many have pointed out in various threads about the 'old days of AO', there hasn't been a new product announcement/release in a few years - nothing to get the kids all excited again. Personally, I don't really consider the Pro Classic a new product. Hopefully it will appeal to plenty of folks though.

Perhaps this lack of recent upgrades for mags is part of the root of all the negativity/complaining about "the mag doesn't do this, it doesn't do that". But then, you always hear from people who have complaints. You hardly EVER hear from people who are perfectly happy or are having no problems at all. Ask anyone who's worked in customer service before. People don't generally have anything to say to a manufacturer about a product unless it's a complaint. Thus most of what you hear on AO about AGD products are complaints - like a lot of the posts in this thread and others

For example, Lohman in particular (at least that I've noticed and I'm sure there are others) has been going on and on about the lack of eyes for quite a while. And no this isn't a personal attack against Lohman

X-Mags had eyes, yet most of the X-Mag owners I know (and I know a lot) - including the formerly sponsored tourney teams - never used them. Why? Because of Level 10.

Personally, I'd rather have L10 over eyes any day. Here's why:

1. No electronics or batteries required. I can use it on an E/X-Mag or a pump Mag and it works the same, albeit at a slight cost in gas consumption. If I get a chuff or two and get delayed in shooting for a 1/2 second, fine. At least I don't have a gooey mess in the gun and balls shooting every which way but straight. If the battery dies on my E-Mag, I can go into mech mode and my anti-chop system is still working without handicaps. Perfectly fine trade offs to have a pneumatic anti-chop system on my guns, whether they use batteries or not.

Not everyone uses electronic guns you know.

2. Simpler than eyes - less to go wrong. If part of the eye circutry goes bad or the battery dies in game, I'm screwed. If the L10 springs a leak, I run out of gas faster, but I'm still playing. And it's an easy at the field fix.

There are some trade offs of course, as there are with most anything. L10 can be a pain to set up/adjust for the inexperienced and even some experienced people *cough* RobAGD *cough*. Also, it uses a bit more air. But when you realize that this anti chop capability has been added onto a 10+ year old design without redesigning the whole thing...well I'll take that any day, thank you very much. Plus as an added bonus, the recoil has been cut in half.

Hold on a sec...what was the original post about again?

[SlartyBartFast]

But are we not anti-hype. Or is this along with the new rule, can bash anything but mags. I can also use hype but only for mags? Mags are a great marker, for what they are... but that does not mean it does not have negative attributes either.

And frankly, in my opinion, paintball marker pricing is stupid. I can buy a Kimber for what I pay for a Shocker...

You took me wrong. The recharge rate of the Mag is not hype. TK posted the recharge graphs. If other markers can be hyped for their claimed over performance, why is it Mag haters stomp all over the Mag even for the true positive attributes?

Questioning negatives is not Bashing.

I think QT got it right. Much of what haters attempt to pass as "truth" or "constructive criticism" is really just a profound dislike that they need to pin to something specific.

I suggest anyone truly want to discuss design and efficiency search out one of the myriad other threads and post there.

[Lohman446]

You took me wrong. The recharge rate of the Mag is not hype. TK posted the recharge graphs. If other markers can be hyped for their claimed over performance, why is it Mag haters stomp all over the Mag even for the true positive attributes?

But its usefullness is. Hype does not have to be false. One of the "hype" points of the Ion is its price, and SP hypes it. There are other $300 markers out there with very similar features, very similar performance, and some even cheaper. Still when I say cheap electro many people think of the Ion.

[bound for glory]

i stand with tuna on the whole "don't come here and tear down mags" thing. i've been shoting agd scince mag 355. get a spider over a mag? no thanks. and i'll pull 355 out of retirment and it will still out shot a 98c. all day long. and i saw quite a few at castle at emr. all the species of mags. hey tuna, you rule! wanna look at my devilmag?

[GT]

I'm betting that with the level 10, a 14 inch effective length barrel is what you need. The problem is trying to find one. Anyone have one, anyone, anyone...

arnt CP's sigle bore? You would think with all of these dealers someone could sell us a tube for 50-60 bucks.

[shartley]

Unfortunately it's far easier for a multibillion corporate giant like Ford to redesign/improve/change (for better or worse) a car like a Mustang. Certainly it costs a ton in money & labor to redesign a car. Redesigning the various flavors of Mag valve woudn't cost nearly as much but it does cost a lot. AGD isn't a huge company by any stretch of the imagination and they probably would redesign the valve...if they could afford it. The efficiency is what it is, positive or negative. Alas, AGD is hardly Ford and it is unlikely that any valve redesign is in the future. Give the efficency thing a rest. It's not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Personally, I don't have a beef with the efficiency at all. There's this cool little invention that's on my air tank. I think it's called a pressure gauge. I look at it now and then so I don't run out of air. Refill as necessary. What efficency problem?

As many have pointed out in various threads about the 'old days of AO', there hasn't been a new product announcement/release in a few years - nothing to get the kids all excited again. Personally, I don't really consider the Pro Classic a new product. Hopefully it will appeal to plenty of folks though.

[JimmyBeam]

effeciency, yes

consistency, well i consider that more of a upgrade feature unless your shooting an AKA marker.(i view AKA regs as the best) and since your reg is responsible for your consitency for the most part, if you dont like it you can always just upgrade it. except for AGD guns which have the reg built into the valve. <----hmmm i got myself thinking now