The end of Paintball?

[yakitori]

I play tourney ball and rec ball. It's a great way to practice. For the most part we try to get kids interested inthe sport. When I play rec ball I use my mag or My shocker with the ramping off. It's very important to NOT overshoot someone because you can. Rec ball is a great way to practice your communication and snap shooting. It also is a great way to show the noobs what they can become just by using their own equipment if they can find a couple of others who show up every week and are willing to communicate. We took a group of kids out there with some Espyders and showed them some stuff. They got the hang of it very quickly. Motivated kid does not seem to have the fear of getting hit (unless it's there first day) and running diving and sliding. But what they all seem to lack from the get go is communication. With help and patience from experienced players we seem to get more people interested. The amount of paint you shoot only matters in Tourneys. When kids get their skill levels up the amount they are willing to spend on the sport increases because they want to be competitive.

In fact our group of newbs began to get confident and wanted to start slinging paint. We cleared it with the owner of our field and let them play with there guns on full auto (but could only burst shoot) against our ramping shockers. They loved it. They could begin to hold lanes closed. That added to what they learned made them pretty good.

Paintball is not dying by any means. It is your responsibilty as the experienced player to show the newbs how to play. If you just destroy them there first time out......they aren't coming back. If you show them how to play and be competitive with what they have, they will comeback every week.

Mags247

good post.

[Aslan]

Opinions

if woodsball is dying, it is because woodsball is not getting the attention that it used to. those who like it will still play it, but if speedball appeals to someone, you don't want to force them to play woodsball. If you took the average rec player who plays at a speedball course, threw them into a woodsball course, I am guessing that they would be the same person who you were complaining was shooting w/ ramping and ruining woodsball. honestly, let the more "dangerous" stuff stay at speedball, and let woodsball be for first timers, scenario buffs, and those who like paintball to be more realistic.

I wasn't making a case for forcing speedball players to play woodsball, the would be rediculous and impossible. If people want to play speedball, all the more power to them. But as courses continue to limit options to "only" speedball, it is no longer a choice and newbs, rec players, and other woodsball guys/gals are forced into finding someone's backyard. Backyard ball is nice, I love playing on someone's property with a pump and a 45 round hopper...it's cheap, there are rarely attitude problems, and everybody is fairly even with equipment. That being said, if you're new to the sport and would like to start playing...ya better know a guy that knows a guy that has a big backyard...that'll be the only option once speedball dominates.

I know people, even kids, sometimes work very hard to save up enough money for equipment...I didn't mean to generalize...sorry about that.

[Aslan]

Enough of these...

i play pump speedball against ramping markers all the time and do pretty well for the most part.

for the most part, it's not the gun, it's whats behind it.

Would it be possible to limit posts to reality based discussions. If you guys (pumps vs the world) are so common...why haven't I seen ONE of you bada$$es at the field? Why wasn't ONE of the players on any of three amateur teams using a pump? Why aren't there pro teams set up with pumps?

Furthermore, why would anyone even have invented a semi-auto? If pumps are the bomb...a semi-auto is just an inaccurate waste of paint. And to take that a step further...why are all the new markers coming out electric...burst...full-auto...electric hopper...etc...???

You should write a letter to the gun companies explaining that they should stop making this junk because it's just plain un necessary and any self-respecting tournament player (who is yet to be seen) would rather use pumps. We could actually get rid of all guns except Tiger Sharks (I would say Talons, but then the fields would be littered with those da&n CO2 cannisters and it would be an envirnmental/safety concern).

Before you pull out your FLAMEthrower...I love pumps...I wish everybody used pumps...the most fun I have is in a backyard woods area with friends using pumps with 45 round hoppers/limits. We've even played "civil war" where you can use semi-autos but have to load one round at a time (no hoppers) and that was a blast. I'm certainly not blasting pumps...I'm just saying that people keep talking about (on numerous threads) how they are so good they use pumps against ramping markers and they win 1000 tournaments a year, etc... but I have YET to see any pumps show up for even woodsball...much less speedball and after watching the speedball teams practice where there was literally a WALL of paint flying in each direction...it just doesn't seem realistic unless you have some special pump that you can press a "full-auto" button or something...in which case...NOT a pump.

[Aslan]

Answer

*sigh*

Aslan, how long have you been playing?

**sigh**
3-5 years, how bout yourself...
**sigh**

[Pyroboy597]

simple solution to the price problem... get an ion... they are a little more than a nice spyder, and less than some A-5's. some pros even use them. i own one and it shoots 10x better than my mag does. And it was a third of the price.

[Aslan]

Good Post

well at least you realize and agree that the speedballers you watched had a lot of skill. Its not thier equipment that matters. That is a good observation. Most ppl who see it just complain about the fast guns doing all the work. Ill promise you that most of the guns were not 2000. DM4s these days go for 750-850 even w/ some ups.

I dont think woodsball will die. I know a lot of guys that play woodball on their own on their own property w/ their friends. They just dont want to pay so much money to go play in the woods when they can get some friends together and do it themselves and have just as much fun. I dont think its because fast guns are ruining the sport and ppl dont want to go anymore. Its just to dang overpriced at some fields.

Agreed. I think the other part of it (however) is that fields are starting to transition to speedball and woodsball fields are dying. Pretty soon there will be airball fields next to country shopping malls and the only woodsball fields will be a few scattered scenario fields charging $500 per weekend and those will just be filled with speedball players anyway. It's sad.

[slade]

stop with the anti-speedball attitude. theres nothing wrong with speedball, i started out on a speedball field and played there a half dozen times before even seeing a woodsball field. speedball is fine for newbs, they just have to play with other newbs. its the same with woodsball, new players have to start out with other new players. if your field doesnt seperate newbs and amateur teams at practice, then it has a problem. and if, as you said, speedball begins to dominate, it is because people like speedball and thats what they want to play, and often that is what they started out playing.

oh and by the way, the last time i saw a pump on the field (and it was an xball field, mind you) was just a few weeks ago.




*edit* and also if you'll look around AO, you will see plenty of people who own phantoms or pump cockers, or even RRfireblade who just made (and used) a pump karnivore.

[mags247]

Oooh Reply to mine next.....

[JMAN]

The cheaper paint becomes the more people will gravitate towards speedball. I only play WoodsBall and although I love it, I'm sure SpeedBall would be just as, if not more fun. The main obstacle isn't equipment--that's a one time investment--it is the amount of money needed to keep up paint-wise.

[Aslan]

Good Post, sort of...

When I play rec ball I use my mag or My shocker with the ramping off... We took a group of kids out there with some Espyders and showed them some stuff... The amount of paint you shoot only matters in Tourneys. When kids get their skill levels up the amount they are willing to spend on the sport increases because they want to be competitive.

In fact our group of newbs began to get confident and wanted to start slinging paint. We cleared it with the owner of our field and let them play with there guns on full auto (but could only burst shoot) against our ramping shockers. They loved it. They could begin to hold lanes closed. That added to what they learned made them pretty good.

Paintball is not dying by any means. It is your responsibilty as the experienced player to show the newbs how to play. If you just destroy them there first time out......they aren't coming back. If you show them how to play and be competitive with what they have, they will comeback every week.

Mags247

I like what you said about helping kids with the communication...I really need to do more of that. I usually get frustrated by newbie kids because they do stupid stuff rather than try to explain what they should do. Like, in a game yesterday, I was holding down one side of the field and our middle anf left side was collapsing. 3 kids came running back and hid behind an obstacle. I told them they needed to fire at the guys coming up the middle and left because I couldn't hold down all 3 sides. They just sat their hiding. Another kid came running up to where I was and hid. I told him I needed help, I couldn't hold everybody alone and I was running low on CO2. He offered to let me borrow his CO2 tank and he was going to call himself out. Out of frustration (and lack of air and a jamming gun and me being the last real player alive), I just called myself out.

But as to the rest of your post, you sort of made my point for me. You talk about equipping kids with E-Spyders and having everybody go at it with bursts. You started out talking about how you showed them the tactics and strategy...but also said they would want to spend more money on equipment to stay competitive. Why would they need to buy ramping markers or electric supermachines to stay competitive in woodsball if you showed them the strategy involved?

Strategy and skill make the difference in speedball...because everyone has the same marker (essentially). Equipment makes the difference in woodsball because the equipment can differ so much between players. After what happened yesterday, I sort of like the other field's policy about advanced and novice classes where a novice player cannot use nitro, compressed air, have an electric gun or electric trigger, or use an electric hopper. I have a couple problems with that policy because:
A) It sort of forces automags out because they run so poorly on CO2 when really a Classic Mag isn't the same advantage as an E-Spyder or Shocker or Angel...it just runs better on nitro.
B) Guys with certain guns (like Tippmanns with flatlines) manage to find their way into novice class even though their guns give them a bit of advantage ov er field guns and stock guns.

But I'd take the classes over "open walk on" any day after what happened yesterday. I'd also favor velocity locks and random chrono testing.
B)

[slade]

**sigh**
3-5 years, how bout yourself...
**sigh**

2+ years, over a year seriously.

has that 3-5 years been on and off, once every other month in backyards or rec ball fields? because (no offense intended, of course, im not trying to flame) you sound like youre new to the sport. "These guys were easily shooting 20bps"... its rare that someone can actually sustain more than 15 bps for any significant length of time, or average over 16 or 17. theres plenty of proof of that here on AO. and ramping, full auto, burst, trigger bounce, etc should be illegal at your field... if its not, find a new field.

you also keep saying things like "some kind of electric auto thing" and considering you dont know the name, and you say "auto" (which would be illegal) it makes you sound like a newb. that and the fact that you are saying things like "speedball is killing the sport" makes you sound like you tried speedball for the first time, had bad refs that put you with experienced players with electros, and didnt do that well. plus youre a 2k5er.

"How does a kid off the street get into speedball? He'll need $$$...but he'll also need a team, maybe a sponser...maybe 4-6 other guys to make a team...each of them with major $$$."

umm... the kid gets some of his friends together, goes to the field, rents gear, buys paint, and plays with his friends. either that or he just goes to the field and finds people of comparable skill. he can just play slowly and over a few years works his way up the equipment and skill ladder until hes ready to play with more experienced players. maybe he can get picked up by a team or start a team with his friends. thats what i did. you dont need a team to play speedball, most fields allow just walk on play and maybe have one day a week for team practices.

one other thing though.

"I would say for speedball, 80% strategy/skill/communication; 15% physical ability; 5% equipment."

"I think in that other post, I said that paintball was 70% equipment, 25% strategy/communication/technique, 5% physical skills. After what I saw today, maybe the strategy/communication/skills could be adjusted up 5% and the equipment down 5%...but I have to stand by that."

so in the same post, you said that:
paintball is 80% strategy/skill, 15% physical, and 5% equipment, and then
paintball is 30% strategy/skill, 5% physical, and 65% equipment.

so which is it? thats quite a difference.

[Aslan]

Anti

stop with the anti-speedball attitude. theres nothing wrong with speedball...if, as you said, speedball begins to dominate, it is because people like speedball and thats what they want to play, and often that is what they started out playing.

oh and by the way, the last time i saw a pump on the field (and it was an xball field, mind you) was just a few weeks ago.

*edit* and also if you'll look around AO, you will see plenty of people who own phantoms or pump cockers, or even RRfireblade who just made (and used) a pump karnivore.

A) My opinion after yesterday is anti-speedball, it's my opinion...you're free to end you membership in my fan club at anytime.
B) Speedball will dominate because X-Ball is cheaper and easier for fields to set up. You can set X-Ball courses up anywhere and take them down in 30 minutes. X-Ball is easier for fields, not preferred by new players. However, if it's all that's there...I guess you play it.
C) Still haven't seen the pump against ramping markers thing. If it was a team of pumps and standard guns against another team of pumps and standard guns, I guess that's different.
D) Okay, you're talking about $600 pumps upgraded right? I'm assuming these pumps work quite differently than a standard pump? I only assume that because why would you pay that amount for a pump that works EXACTLY the same as a Tracer or Maverick that you can pick up for $50? I'm assuming that the pumps you are talking about probably have some features that make them a bit more than a "pump"?

[mags247]

But as to the rest of your post, you sort of made my point for me. You talk about equipping kids with E-Spyders and having everybody go at it with bursts. You started out talking about how you showed them the tactics and strategy...but also said they would want to spend more money on equipment to stay competitive. Why would they need to buy ramping markers or electric supermachines to stay competitive in woodsball if you showed them the strategy involved?

Strategy and skill make the difference in speedball...because everyone has the same marker (essentially). Equipment makes the difference in woodsball because the equipment can differ so much between players. After what happened yesterday, I sort of like the other field's policy about advanced and novice classes where a novice player cannot use nitro, compressed air, have an electric gun or electric trigger, or use an electric hopper. I have a couple problems with that policy because:
A) It sort of forces automags out because they run so poorly on CO2 when really a Classic Mag isn't the same advantage as an E-Spyder or Shocker or Angel...it just runs better on nitro.
B) Guys with certain guns (like Tippmanns with flatlines) manage to find their way into novice class even though their guns give them a bit of advantage ov er field guns and stock guns.

But I'd take the classes over "open walk on" any day after what happened yesterday. I'd also favor velocity locks and random chrono testing.
B)

I will agree that it woodsball you dont need a high end gun. I use a tippman for that stuff.

I guess I should have clarified. Most people start of playing some type of woodsball (one shot one kill) however they will eventually make it over to a rec ball field one day. Some people like myself enjoy Speedball because it is more of a sport with rules. Not just a rec sport. In speed ball you can look at the other teams from the sidelines and try to pick up on what they are doing.

Maybe woodsball is seing a decline but I see more people at my local field everyweek. I think that means the sport is growing. My field has Woodsball and Airball fields. I sit out the Woods games because they take like 20-25 min. I like the brutal instant contact of Speedball. It's all preference...........

[slade]

A) My opinion after yesterday is anti-speedball, it's my opinion...you're free to end you membership in my fan club at anytime.
B) Speedball will dominate because X-Ball is cheaper and easier for fields to set up. You can set X-Ball courses up anywhere and take them down in 30 minutes. X-Ball is easier for fields, not preferred by new players. However, if it's all that's there...I guess you play it.
C) Still haven't seen the pump against ramping markers thing. If it was a team of pumps and standard guns against another team of pumps and standard guns, I guess that's different.
D) Okay, you're talking about $600 pumps upgraded right? I'm assuming these pumps work quite differently than a standard pump? I only assume that because why would you pay that amount for a pump that works EXACTLY the same as a Tracer or Maverick that you can pick up for $50? I'm assuming that the pumps you are talking about probably have some features that make them a bit more than a "pump"?

umm, sorry but woodsball is a lot easier to set up than an xball field. for an xball field you have to first clear the land, level it, measure out everything, set up telephone poles for netting surrounding the field, then buy 3-6 thousand dollars of bunkers for each field, then each day blow up all the bunkers, set them up and at the end of the day clean off the paint, and deflate them. for woodsball, you go into the woods and use whatever you can get for free - sticks, branches, pallets, spools, etc and maybe spend some money on plywood and nails. then you just leave it and use it whenever you want. it doesnt even have to have netting because you walk a couple hundred feet before you get to the playing area. xball is a lot harder to make and set up, and that is why paintball started with woodsball. its more popular now because people prefer it.

i cant be positive, but im pretty sure some of those people played with their pumps against electros... and no, they were NOT ramping because for the last time that is illegal at most fields.

im talking about pumps anywhere from $200 to $1500. they pay that because thats what they want and they have the money. and no, the majority of the pumps you will see on AO are stock class legal or at least stock class modified. there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

[Aslan]

2+ years, over a year seriously.

has that 3-5 years been on and off, once every other month in backyards or rec ball fields? because (no offense intended, of course, im not trying to flame) you sound like youre new to the sport. "These guys were easily shooting 20bps"... its rare that someone can actually sustain more than 15 bps for any significant length of time, or average over 16 or 17. theres plenty of proof of that here on AO. and ramping, full auto, burst, trigger bounce, etc should be illegal at your field... if its not, find a new field.

you also keep saying things like "some kind of electric auto thing" and considering you dont know the name, and you say "auto" (which would be illegal) it makes you sound like a newb. that and the fact that you are saying things like "speedball is killing the sport" makes you sound like you tried speedball for the first time, had bad refs that put you with experienced players with electros, and didnt do that well. plus youre a 2k5er.

"How does a kid off the street get into speedball? He'll need $$$...but he'll also need a team, maybe a sponser...maybe 4-6 other guys to make a team...each of them with major $$$."

umm... the kid gets some of his friends together, goes to the field, rents gear, buys paint, and plays with his friends. either that or he just goes to the field and finds people of comparable skill. he can just play slowly and over a few years works his way up the equipment and skill ladder until hes ready to play with more experienced players. maybe he can get picked up by a team or start a team with his friends. thats what i did. you dont need a team to play speedball, most fields allow just walk on play and maybe have one day a week for team practices.

one other thing though.

"I would say for speedball, 80% strategy/skill/communication; 15% physical ability; 5% equipment."

"I think in that other post, I said that paintball was 70% equipment, 25% strategy/communication/technique, 5% physical skills. After what I saw today, maybe the strategy/communication/skills could be adjusted up 5% and the equipment down 5%...but I have to stand by that."

so in the same post, you said that:
paintball is 80% strategy/skill, 15% physical, and 5% equipment, and then
paintball is 30% strategy/skill, 5% physical, and 65% equipment.

so which is it? thats quite a difference.

Where do I start? probably 5 years, montly to bi-monthly...not every other weekend. Never played indoor, watched it on TV acouple times. Yet to play scenario...allthough I talked to alot of people that have. Played X-ball for the first time this past weekend, seen it played before but I paid more attention this time around.

I didn't time their rate of fire. It seemed like around 20. To me, if your up around 15-16...it might as well be 30....

I didn't inspect their markers or go to each player and ask what they were using...so I called them whatever I called them...auto, ramping, electro, crazy monster guns...whatever. Either way I go, it'll cause flamethrowing...because if I say they were going crazy with "Gun X" then all the "Gun X" owners will flame.

If you read the post more carefully, I talked about speedball being 80% skill because all the equipment is so similar. Woodsball/Rec ball would be 65% equipment because the difference between players guns can be great where as (like you said) players playing speedball against each other usually have similar equipment.

If by slade criteria I'm a newb to paintball, so be it...I can't fight the man.