The end of Paintball?

[Deltree]

Speedball is actually cheaper for me to play than woodsball. in an average speedball game i probably use a hopper and maybe a pod if it gets to be a bit longer. In the woods since the games are so drawn out i find myself wasting a halo and 4 160 round pods in a single game. I can play an entire day of speedball on less than 1 case of paint but when i play in the woods i normally have to buy two cases. Woodsball got expensive enough for me that i just don't bring my angel into the woods anymore and just use my pgp because I don't want to waste all that paint.

[Aslan]

Agreed

I will agree that it woodsball you dont need a high end gun. I use a tippman for that stuff.

I guess I should have clarified. Most people start of playing some type of woodsball (one shot one kill) however they will eventually make it over to a rec ball field one day. Some people like myself enjoy Speedball because it is more of a sport with rules. Not just a rec sport. In speed ball you can look at the other teams from the sidelines and try to pick up on what they are doing.

Maybe woodsball is seing a decline but I see more people at my local field everyweek. I think that means the sport is growing. My field has Woodsball and Airball fields. I sit out the Woods games because they take like 20-25 min. I like the brutal instant contact of Speedball. It's all preference...........

I agree. I actually played both. I enjoyed the X-Ball course in the morning when we had 2-4 people per team and the guns were balanced. In both early games I was the last one on my team standing and in one of them I took the 3 opposing players out single-handedly...it was fun. I prefer woodsball...most of the rec players there actually tried the X-Ball but preferred the woodsball...despite wet terrain and massive mosquito swarms. BRING BUG SPRAY...important. Later in the day, the refs tried putting like 15 player teams on the X-Ball course and that was just stupid...it wasn't fun at all.

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.

[Aslan]

What the...???

umm, sorry but woodsball is a lot easier to set up than an xball field. for an xball field you have to first clear the land, level it, measure out everything, set up telephone poles for netting surrounding the field, then buy 3-6 thousand dollars of bunkers for each field, then each day blow up all the bunkers, set them up and at the end of the day clean off the paint, and deflate them. for woodsball, you go into the woods and use whatever you can get for free - sticks, branches, pallets, spools, etc and maybe spend some money on plywood and nails. then you just leave it and use it whenever you want. it doesnt even have to have netting because you walk a couple hundred feet before you get to the playing area. xball is a lot harder to make and set up, and that is why paintball started with woodsball. its more popular now because people prefer it.

i cant be positive, but im pretty sure some of those people played with their pumps against electros... and no, they were NOT ramping because for the last time that is illegal at most fields.

im talking about pumps anywhere from $200 to $1500. they pay that because thats what they want and they have the money. and no, the majority of the pumps you will see on AO are stock class legal or at least stock class modified. there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land...

Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay.

there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

What? So you have a pump...but you don't pump it. Pneumatic assist...isn't that a semi-auto? Auto triggers...on a pump? Let's get this straight...a "pump" is a gun that when you pull the horizontal foregrip back, it loads ONE ball. Then, you fire it. Then, you start the process again. A gun where you don't have to do those things, by definition, can't be a "pump". Maybe that's why everyone disagrees with me about pumps vs. electros...because their using electros and calling them pumps...confusing.

[mags247]

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.

Don't be affraid, Your local filed should always have a following. Speedball is taking off and others should'nt be discouraged because they can't afford it. Do what you can on your rec ball field. The whole point of paintball is to have fun, once you start trying to keep up with what the other guys are doing you have successfully lost the focus of what you are doing. Just have fun.

[yakitori]

I would also like to add that because woodsball is declining you your regional location doesnt mean that it is dying in the whole sport of paintball. I have seen huge crowds go to the field that I began on . It is 15years old field and mostly woods. They are just now adding a speedball field this year. I have seen teams as large as 40 vs 40 maybe more, on a big wooded field. It varies based on season, interests, and location. That doesnt mean the "the whole woodsball community is dying worldwide" Maybe it is just your location. I think speedball fields are easier to set up and ref, and personally I enjoy speedball the most. But, when I take someone paintballing for their first trip, I usually take them to the field that I began. Its easier competetion, they dont like getting lit up the first time they play and its easier for them to learn certain techniques. They seem to enjoy it. A lot of ppl that watch the xball game w/ paintslingers wouldnt even try to step on the field against them. They are intimidated. I dont blame them.

[skife]

Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land...

Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay.




What? So you have a pump...but you don't pump it. Pneumatic assist...isn't that a semi-auto? Auto triggers...on a pump? Let's get this straight...a "pump" is a gun that when you pull the horizontal foregrip back, it loads ONE ball. Then, you fire it. Then, you start the process again. A gun where you don't have to do those things, by definition, can't be a "pump". Maybe that's why everyone disagrees with me about pumps vs. electros...because their using electros and calling them pumps...confusing.

pnumatic assist uses rams and 3way valves to cock the gun, so the pump stroke is about an inch. :P

autotriggering is when you hold the trigger down and pump and the gun just shoots like that.

[slasherdan]

And here come the pump stories. Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing. I can guarantee that there were no pumps on the field today.

You don't see pumps in your area because the players in your area allow themselves to be intimadated by other players markers ... so they believe they need them too ...

I'm part of the Gunfighters club. All we use are Stock Class....

Everytime we go to a field there is always some "pro"/"beginner" ... WHATEVER team there that desides to challenge us after a few games.

Each time we beat them hands down.

Does that mean we're better???? Maybe more disciplined .... the groups we play against are good and I dont want to come across as saying they suck ... But we prove on a consistant basis that it isn't a game of BPS ....

And if you don't believe me you can even do search for some MPG of a X-Ball team out in cali that won their division ..... three of the 5 guys had pumps and they were all the runners ...

[slade]

Speedball is actually cheaper for me to play than woodsball. in an average speedball game i probably use a hopper and maybe a pod if it gets to be a bit longer. In the woods since the games are so drawn out i find myself wasting a halo and 4 160 round pods in a single game. I can play an entire day of speedball on less than 1 case of paint but when i play in the woods i normally have to buy two cases. Woodsball got expensive enough for me that i just don't bring my angel into the woods anymore and just use my pgp because I don't want to waste all that paint.

agreed. i waste so much more paint on woodsball, waste a lot more time just wandering around and overall it isnt fun at all for me. in speedball i shoot less than a case a day and when im low on paint, have been able to go up to 5 games on one hopper, and still last whole games and get people out. and this is 5+ man teams against other tourney players.

I agree. I actually played both. I enjoyed the X-Ball course in the morning when we had 2-4 people per team and the guns were balanced. In both early games I was the last one on my team standing and in one of them I took the 3 opposing players out single-handedly...it was fun. I prefer woodsball...most of the rec players there actually tried the X-Ball but preferred the woodsball...despite wet terrain and massive mosquito swarms. BRING BUG SPRAY...important. Later in the day, the refs tried putting like 15 player teams on the X-Ball course and that was just stupid...it wasn't fun at all.

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.

well of course when someone plays rec for a year or two and then tries speedball, theyre used to rec so they wont be used to speedball and wont like it as much the first time. and yeah, i hate it when refs put too many players on a team... last time they tried 10 man teams on a 5 man field. next time ask them if they can split it up and run two seperate games, thats what they do at one of my fields. and they should split it so the tourney players are together and the rec players are together. and as i have explained numerous times, speedball does NOT spell doom for paintball for many reasons. and anyway those new players shouldnt be playing with the tourney players, so it shouldnt concern them. just play and have fun by yourself! work your way up. and it doesnt cost nearly as much as youre saying. my freestyle cost me $460 shipped, halo and tank about $250, decent quality barrel $30, and maybe $70 for a unimount, macroline, o-ring kit, lube, etc. and i guess that does add up, but i bought that over 2 years. i started out with a rental and then a year of speedball with a $200 spyder and co2 i got off ebay, ricochet hopper and stock barrel. and as i said, i average less than a case a day and the last tourney i entered cost around $250 for the team... i think it was around $70 for enterance and paint for me.

but anyway, ive never seen a single newb who has looked at experienced players and thought that it cost too much, they could never be like that, etc... they just thought they were good players with expensive equipment theyve accumulated over the years, and wished they could be like them. and they kept on playing with other newbs.

Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land...

never seen an ad like that. but at 2 of the 3 outdoor speedball fields ive been to, the land its on used to be woods. they cut down the trees, tore the stumps out of the ground, measured everything out, leveled the field out, put in telephone polls and netting and then bought the bunkers. even if there is already a field there, you still need the netting and you have to set up the bunkers each time.

Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay.

i didnt say it was an advantage. i was saying people may spend $1500 on a pump because its exactly what they want and they have the money for it. but its still a pump.

pneumatic assist is exactly what it sounds like, it shortens the pump stroke by having a 3-way that cocks the marker. its like an autococker, except the 3-way is attached to a pump on the front of the marker instead of attached to the trigger.

auto trigger is where you hold the trigger and pump the marker, and it will fire for every pump stroke. its fairly similar to semi-auto, in ROF at least.


oh yeah, and before anyone brings up overshooting, the most ive ever been lit up has been on a woodsball field.

[Smakman]

2) Woodsball is dieing.

Not happening. When I began hosting big games in 2001, I drew 50 players and mine was the only scenario within at least 100 miles and one of only a handful being hosted within 200-300 miles. I drew about 50 players for that first event. Now there are dozens of games per year, most of them drawing over 100 players, mine has grown to nearly 400 players per event. I know of 3 or 4 groups in the immediate area who meet frequently to play in the woods and their numbers keep growing. I don't know if woodsball is growing as fast as speedball, but it is definately growing in this region, not dieing.

[Jaan]

You know, I'd like to see a cross between the fast action of speedball and the more adventurous aspects of woodsball and scenario. Personally I think speedball is boring ... yeah I know what you're thinking but it's too much of the same, symmetrical friends and all that. What I always liked about playing renegade and why I play it so often was finding new cool places to play and having many more options. My friends *still* talk about an old abandoned fish processing plant in the woods we used to play at with a partially collapsed roof. I want to feel like I'm in the middle of Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, Unreal Tournament and The Road Warrior. That's what I want, and I want it now. Damn it. (c:

[shartley]

well of course when someone plays rec for a year or two and then tries speedball, theyre used to rec so they wont be used to speedball and wont like it as much the first time.

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team.

More of a sport? Speedball is a type of GAME in the sport of Paintball. Read my above comment as it applies to this quote as well.

1) How does a kid off the street get into speedball?

The same as they get into any type of paintball format. Read my other two comments, as they apply to this as well.

2) Woodsball is dieing.

Furthermore, why would anyone even have invented a semi-auto? If pumps are the bomb...a semi-auto is just an inaccurate waste of paint. And to take that a step further...why are all the new markers coming out electric...burst...full-auto...electric hopper...etc...???

Personally I think speedball is boring ...

[drg]

It's not going to be a silver bullet or anything, but here's one idea. What if within an X-ball type format, limited paint were implemented. Not super limited, but maybe like a total limit on paint per half. That would mean the early games would be fast and frantic and the later games could come down to a very different style of play. At the least it would vary the kind of games you see, even if they are on a speedball field.

I think in the end the less paint in the air, the more exciting a game is as players can move more and pull more "plays" off. I mean as it is the most exciting part of a speedball game is the closing aspect. This way no matter how far the state of the art moves with respect to guns, there will always be a natural limit, which can be exploited by a well practiced team with less money.

Maybe that's not the point of this thread but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Aslan]

Not about the money.

Don't be affraid, Your local filed should always have a following. Speedball is taking off and others should'nt be discouraged because they can't afford it. Do what you can on your rec ball field. The whole point of paintball is to have fun, once you start trying to keep up with what the other guys are doing you have successfully lost the focus of what you are doing. Just have fun.

I wasn't making a "money arguement"...that's an entirely different topic regarding how expensive the sport has gotten. What I was saying is that, other than players that just play behind their house a few times a year or go to their local field for a special event once in awhile, many players would like to get into paintball and work their way into more competitive aspects where they can form teams and play in real tournaments and/or competitive matches. All I was saying is that if people with those types of ideas go see a speedball practice where people are using thousands of dollars worth of equipment and going through hundreds of dollars in paint. That's all. I guess I'm not so much argueing against speedball...I'm really more making a suggestion that paintball fields and the paintball community do a better job to:

1) Attract new players.
2) Offer a fun and safe environment.
3) Provide players with economical options.
4) Provide players the possibility that as their skills increase, they can in some way work their way into more and more competitive environments.

Right now, I see the sport getting so expensive that new players aren't as attracted as they used to be. The resale on the guns is low enough that used ones are inexpensive (relatively) to pick up...but field prices and paint policies are going up and up. I've also seen more and more reviews of fields where the staff is seen as often times incompetant and uninterested. Refs don't seem to want to be there and some fields (certainly not all) have gotten very lazy about setting up fun games with new players and experienced players separated appropriately and guns regulated (chrono) properly. They seem to be fairly strict about goggles...but that doesn't matter when I'm getting hit in the face mask and coming home with 3-4 cracks in my lens.

Gun companies also need to do their part. If the lowest priced marker that a player can have a decent shot with using at the field is over $200, players will be forced to either rent guns (not as fun as having your own baby) or buy $115 guns that aren't worth $40 (Brass Eagle, Winchester, etc...). Tippmann has kept this in mind and pretty much dominated as of late. WGP has even introduced their lower priced version autococker (Trilogy?). More gun makers need to offer larger ranges of products, not just focus on 2-3 "supermarkers". And all parties with interest in paintball (stores, fields, gun companies, accessory companies, paintball makers) need to make sure that when players go play at their local field...they get at least a little information on where they can go if they want to join or start teams and different divisions that exist for new and experienced players to play in, upcoming tourneys, etc...

Well...that wasn't meant to be a manifesto...sorry for the length.

[Aslan]

Not a pump

pnumatic assist uses rams and 3way valves to cock the gun, so the pump stroke is about an inch. :P

autotriggering is when you hold the trigger down and pump and the gun just shoots like that.

Well, I think it's misleading to call them "stock class pumps" when they fire as fast or faster than semi-autos and cost 3 times as much. If all the "pump players" want to impress me, instead of saying they plyed in a tournament and won using "pumps", try using real pumps...like a Sheridan or a Brute or a Tracer...any gun that requires a FULL pump stroke...no electronics...no 1/2 inch pump strokes...REAL pumps.

[Aslan]

Pumps

You don't see pumps in your area because the players in your area allow themselves to be intimadated by other players markers ... so they believe they need them too ...

I'm part of the Gunfighters club. All we use are Stock Class....

Everytime we go to a field there is always some "pro"/"beginner" ... WHATEVER team there that desides to challenge us after a few games.

Each time we beat them hands down.

Does that mean we're better???? Maybe more disciplined .... the groups we play against are good and I dont want to come across as saying they suck ... But we prove on a consistant basis that it isn't a game of BPS ....

And if you don't believe me you can even do search for some MPG of a X-Ball team out in cali that won their division ..... three of the 5 guys had pumps and they were all the runners ...

REAL pumps?