Is the Dead Man Walk Really that big a deal?

[Spartan X]

When your playing for money it's all about winnin g. If it's legal and it can help you win do it. If your just playing a rec ball game, then don"t be an ***.

But again, if it's legal, and there in money on the line, I see no reason why not to.

That's one reason I have shyed from tourneys, it's all about money and not the love of the game. When money is on the lione, people loose focus about having fun and not pulling cheap stuff.

[TheTramp]

I am opposed to dead man walk because it encourages tons of bonus balling if you know it can happen at your field. Might sound like a wussy opinion, but I don't feel like getting eaten up every time I step out of my bunker because some assclown pulling a deadman walk put everyone on edge

[Jack & Coke]

DMW in Tournament = ok, but like a baseball player who turns his homerun trot into a dance that shows up the pitcher... expect one in the ear next time (i.e. bonus ball).

DMW in REC = poor sportsmanship = high probability of ill will = increased occurance of mystery bonus balls. There exists a certain level of trust, respect, and good sportsmanship that keeps honest, fun-loving, non-malicious players from overshooting someone who is trying to walk off the field.

DMW is an act of disrespect by taking advantage of an opponent's good will to not OVERSHOOT.

[SlartyBartFast]

It wasn't a DMW that won the game for ND, it was piss poor reffing.

Hmm. Yes and no.

In all rule books the responsibility of calling an elimination is the player's not the ref's.


But, then not giving penalties for not calling themselves out is back full circle to bad reffing...

[Caffiend]

I thought the orginal question referred to NPPL, PSP, NXL tournaments, in those I think the DMW should be legal. In rec play it's definately not in the best interest of the players. At the fields around here, most if not all have outlawed the DMW for that very reason.

[Blazestorm]

Load up that video and watch it closely starting at the 3:04 mark, that's when the whole DMW gig starts. At 3:09, the ND player does clearly signal he's out, his marker comes out from behind the bunker first and its over his head. As he starts to stand up, both his hands are clearly up over his head. Once he's upright and starts starts walking, then the arms come down. Its pretty quick in there, but if you watch closely, you'll see it. Additionally, at the 3:10 mark as he's walking away, he's clearly hit on his right butt cheek. The truely sad thing here is a clueless ref is standing there watching the whole thing and doesn't take any action. Keep an eye on clueless here through the rest of the sequence, he just wanders around, its pretty evident that's he's an unexperienced ref and really shouldn't be out there. The head ref (guy with white towel) yells at this very ref repeatedly to "pull that guy", the clueless ref's hesitation it quite evident, he really doesn't know what's going on or what he should be doing. On top of this, the head ref doesn't even bother to check the ND player as he would have seen the paint on his backside, instead he just ignores that player and focuses on the exile guys the ND player just shot out. There was a huge argument after the game was over, the event head ref was called over and it went on for a good 15 minutes.

What's really really sad here is this DMW was totally unintentional, the player actually thought he was out, he even later said he felt the hit on his backside and was pissed that he got bonused after he was clearly out. When he reached his dead box, one of his teammates said quietly "you still have your armband on" but sadly you can't hear it over the exile players yelling to sweep the area in the vid clip, but it was heard by two of the exile players that were near the flag and was brought up to the head ref when the argument broke out after the game was over. At 3:18 you see the ND player stop walking towards the box and raise his marker, he looks semi paniced when he looks around at 3:19 and at 3:20 he starts his shooting spree.

It wasn't a DMW that won the game for ND, it was piss poor reffing.

-Evil Bob

The Exile player TELLS him to get out. The ND player yells "****" and tucks into the bunker further as he realizes he's about to get bunkered. The Exile player tells him to get out. Second, he did not raise his marker or hand ABOVE his head. sticking the gun in the air is not calling yourself out because what if you're trying to play your bunker tight and you're getting pinched so you point the gun up and near your head.

The ND player wasn't even CLOSE to the deadbox, watch the third exile player he shoots, HE is next to the deadbox, the ND player is not. The ND player knew he was alive, the refs knew he was alive, Exile thought he was dead. The reason he said pull another, is because the 2nd exile player starts shooting the ND player after he blatantly shot him first, so that's shooting after you are dead.

It's the cleanest example of a DMW ever to be caught on film imo. And it was pulled off flawlessly. Notice how he shoots the players closest and facing him before shooting the guy running away, he wanted to make sure nobody would have a chance to pull their gun up and shoot him. I believe that was Corey Fields (I talked to Mapp Chhim about it) That's the name I remember him mentioning.

[Paintchucker]

If they haven't signaled their elimination then it's not "bonus balling". Personally, I think it should be against the rules to not properly signal your elimination.

But if you are not eliminated, what would you be signaling? This probably works better in woodsball than on a small speedball field... We used to love it back in the day! Previous poster plays same way I do... You are not signaling that you are eliminated with gun over head, barrel plug in, or at very least your free hand on top of your head, then I am gonna shoot you... And if you have a problem with me doing that, then you and me are gonna go speak with the head ref and the owner of the field... and BTW, if you are a "dead man talking", I assume you still think you a live and will shoot you for that too...

[Automaggot68]

I'm tired,so i'll make this quick.

If you're smart enough to outwit the other team, why should it be your fault as a player?
If they cant see that your marker isn't raised and send a few your way, then screw them.

Example.

A while back at Velocity in Ramona, CA, i pulled a GREAT dead walk during a recball game. I shot ten people, made nine eliminations. One bounced, he shot back, i took cover.

The player complained, i was pulled from the game.

Every morning Velocity explains the rules, and Dead walks were not included.

Blah.

[Blazestorm]

Video shows all...

Best DMW Ever.

http://www.blazestorm.net/dmw.wmv

[SlartyBartFast]

Video shows all...

Best DMW Ever.

http://www.blazestorm.net/dmw.wmv

Is it reall a good DMW? What are the exact rules about a player signalling an elimination in that series?

The reason I ask is that the partially raised hand makes the whole thing a little too shady.

[MarkM]

Ok I have been reading this thread since the beginning and was actually the first to vote.

I voted to say no it isn't a big deal.
I have pulled numerous DMW's over the years some not so successfully but percentage wise more than 75% successful. I have never done this in Rec-ball/walk-on days nor in any Senario Game...all in tournaments both Woodland and on Speedball fields.
If I do not signal that I am out then I expect to get shot at, if I give a signal that I am out then I don't expect to get shot at (unless I have to walk through a firing lane to get to the dead box)
The so called "extra love" which is assualt since I have already been eliminated is the cause of the problem. I get sick of seeing so called pro's get hit and wander off as slow as they possibly can to stop their opponets shooting them again but their own players move up using the lane as being covered by the now elimninated teammate...the same teammate who screams at the ref for a 1 for 1 for the opponent shooting them while they are taking their own sweet time to remove themselves from the field.
I have walked away from a bunker and gone and sat on the floor outside the deadbox and waited to shoot the players now rushing past me...this particular time my marker was oozing paint and I was lucky to get a shot more than 10 feet, I have walked back from a bunker and stood at the side of the deadbox and shot the 4 players running back, I have walked forward and gained yardage. I have even from the whistle walked from the start point and right across the field stopping halfway to allow a firing lane to be used and then continued on until I got to the bottom corner, forced a surrender without firing on the corner player and then proceeded to shoot the last players from behind and the side. In all of these cases if shot at and hit I would have put my hand either up on on my head (tournament rules dependant) zero complaints would have come from me but since I got the upper hand with the players I was doing this against complaints do happen, tough it is allowed and the players allowed me to do it....it is the same as the so called "lucky shot" that I made when I hit an opponent in normal game time...yeah get real I was better than you and more accurate, I shot! I hit you! You lost!
If a tournament was to outlaw/ban DMW's then fine I won't do them but there are times when they need to be done much in the same way as you sweep a field to ensure no-one gets shot in the back running the flag back as very often there is 4 plus players onto one...is that fair...hell yes! Soes it feel good for the player on his/her own...hell no! But it is legal and allowed if that player had been forgotten about then they would have shot everyone in the back and you can bet that the majority of times when this happens it is because the numerically superior team has already called the player in question as eliminated...so by default it was a DMW.

[Evil Bob]

Blaze, you can clearly see his left hand above his head right at the 00:04-00:05 mark on your clip, his hand is siloetted on the ref's orange vest as he's hunched over on his knees and leaning away from the bunker. This occurs right after the exile player says "hand up, get out, you're dead" and you see him raise to his feet off of his knees and exit the bunker. Again, his barrel, as he's hunched over, is clearly above the top of his head, he's one handing the marker and his left hand is raised OVER his head as he turns and leans away from the bunker, all clear signals that he's out. Like I said, watch it closely again.

He one hands the marker in his right hand, this is not someone prepared to gun fight his way out, this is someone signalling they're out especially since his left hand is NO WHERE near his marker since ITS OVER THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS HEAD which again, is nicely siloetted by the ref's orange vest.

At 00:06 in your clip, he's clearly shot on the right butt cheek, the impact is clearly visible and the resulting white spot as he's walking away, he was bonus balled by the second player he shoots out at the ND flag station. Its also clearly visible again at 00:36 and 00:37 as he's walking to the dead box, this hit is visible BEFORE he starts shooting the exile players out at 00:39.

Yes, the first exile player he shoots, which is the one on the right of the screen, does shoot him lower on the leg, back of the thigh at 00:45 which is BELOW the hit he took at 00:06 and the second player he shot out coming in from the left shoots him in the left arm and on the left side of the head as he turns to shoot player 3 who's walking around the upright at the left side of the flag. The gun fight at the end happens 8 feet from the flag, which is considerably closer then your previously stated "nowhere near it", yes he's close enough to exchange words with players in he deadbox which did happen, but all you hear on this clip is the louder yelling, the rest of it is muffled.

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to edit the clip and cut it down to just the meat and potatos and put your thoughts into it to explain your point of view, I just wish you had actually watched it closely before hand and you wouldn't have wasted so much of your time on it.

You claim that the refs knew what was going on, but I beg to differ as they had a very loud argument at the end of the game about it, it was pretty evident that they didn't really know what was going on, the head field ref, the guy with the towel kept telling the other 3 refs to shut the hell and he would do all the talking when the event head ref arrived to render a ruling. This really set the exile players off as it appeared to be clear favoritism by the head field ref. There's alot more here then meets the eye as this clip only shows you part of what happened.

-Evil Bob

[shartley]

[shartley]

....This occurs right after the exile player says "hand up, get out, you're dead" and you see him raise to his feet off of his knees and exit the bunker. ...
-Evil Bob

I thought the ref was yelling that. Was it the other player, or the Ref?

EDIT: Yup. just watched it again..... it was the player.

SO.... with that in mind, I would still call it an illegal DMW for all the reasons posted above as well as in my post. It is clear that anyone would rationally consider the actions of the "dmw" player as signaling his being "out".

[TheTramp]

anything close

I think you hit the nail right on the head here.

I still think it's not a rec ball move for all the reasons stated already but in a tournament it's fine if you can get away with it in a "legal" maner.