DIY PneuMags & PTP

[mobsterboy]

So the frame doesn't use an on/off? No offense, but the frames have gotten significantly better in the last two months. The ones now can have a 1mm <1oz pull, don't require a ULT, work with any valve, etc. Any lighter and the trigger return would be too weak. True, in jay's eyes the pneumatics may be inferior, but if they deliver results that that the users can't outshoot...why pay more for hype and a name? However, from here on out all I feel DW or PTP's frame would offer over a DIY Frame would be reliability and a good manufacturers name behind the product...well that and bolt on capapbility for non DIYers.

Personally I would buy DW's frame in a heartbeat if available.

very good and valid point. Jay was prob talking about certain parts available to him that im sure a) the company had a hold on and b)that wasnt well known for pneumag conversions

As would I pneumagger, As would I. But I dont feel like getting my hopes up

[RRfireblade]

1) PTP is still planning on doing a small run...in theory. I don't know when , I don't really care all that much.

2) The PTP version functions on a different principle and the performance blows the do it yourselfers out of the water. From what I've seen and heard the DYIers have VERY wide ranging performance results from decent to poor , hit and miss reliability , short stroking and recock issues and a host of other less then ideal results. Even pnuemagger himself has commented around the Forum that his results are like 50/50 at best (Or something , don't quote me ) and no disrepect intended.

Most of them seem to end up in Buy/Sell/Ebay only weeks after completion. Why's that?

3) PTPs will not 'likely' void any warranty. We have always been authorized to make aftermarket Mags parts and I expect this to be no different.

4) Of course the PTP version will be a highly 'finished' , manufacturerd production product. Including frame , internal LPR , ASA and all associated parts. It requires no modification to any of the marker in basic terms will require very little if any tuning by the user.Think about how much the DYIer REALLY cost. All the parts and time/labor....REALLY. I hear all kinds of numbers that never include the whole picture.

Just ballpark it has to be something like this

Frame ~$100 new
Pnues ~$75
LPR ~$25
Labor ~$25 if you can order all the parts , build the whole thing , assemble it and tune it to perfection in an hour ?

That alone is $225 , which is probably minimum cost for minimum performce and so so quality of parts and construction. You even have to mod the purchased parts to get them to work. PTP was 'hoping' to be in the 200-250 range including the ASA.

There's a reason why Punishers version posted here like 3-4 years ago didn't create the stir DW's and PTPs did. It just wasn't good enough. It's not the theory , it's the execution.

Ya'll have seen the vids. Both mine and Nicads , besides subjective numbers on paper and bias over self accomplishment can anyone say theirs shoots with the ease and function of the vids?

I've yet to see anything even close to this very rough original proto and we've gotten better since ....

Insanity

Even that one , you can't short stroke it and it's so easy to shoot people claimed the vid was bouncing like an electro. Come on , that is purly insane for a mech.

5) Yeah , the market for this product was about 5 years ago IMO. 5 years ago it would have put Emags back on the shelf. Possibly would have changed the whole industry as we know it. With all the electro controversy forcing Pro Tournys to completely fold up shop and let the manufactureres make the rules, Mech markers 'may' have been the answer to the whole issue of cheating in the Pro scene.

Today ....I wouldn't expect to sell more than 1-200 total.

6) Other than that , it is what it is. The DIYers have done an admirable job. Kudos. And PTP and DWs attempts to bring this to market have sucked. DW never had the means or finances, Tom never had the balls or stomach and PTP never had Mag market motivation.That's why I stopped making any comments to people doing thier own. If that works for you and your happy with , I'm glad. Enjoy.


So I don't know , I guess it's an internet thing why people have to beat dead horses to death over and over and over. It's cool though , no biggie. If you can build and it's good enough then build one.

Right now there is NO other possible alternative and there may never be. Until there is an alternative to even compare , these discussion are kinda silly.

Guess that's it.

[BigEvil]

Well put Jay

It is tough to control the 'dwell' on a purely mech pnuematic ram. The 'fire' isnt the issue, its the 'return'. So if you hold the trigger a little too long that can create a short-stroke.

[RRfireblade]

NOW before PTP tells me to take the link off the web

Oh , and to hopefully clear this up too.

"PTP" has never told anyone anywhere EVER to stop anything related to this product.

I've made comments to like 1-2 people informally on the net and even DW was only questioned as to his designs similarity.

[Cow hunter]

Well put Jay

It is tough to control the 'dwell' on a purely mech pnuematic ram. The 'fire' isnt the issue, its the 'return'. So if you hold the trigger a little too long that can create a short-stroke.

would it be possible to have some sort of delay valve? like a ven that would prevent firing the same as dwell would?

[BigEvil]

would it be possible to have some sort of delay valve? like a ven that would prevent firing the same as dwell would?

Im not sure. You really wouldnt want a 'delay'.. you want the valve to open, push the hammer forwards and back regardless if you are still holding the trigger or not.

Whats great about my Electro-Pneumatic frame is, dwell is controled electronically. Its basically a pneu-frame with a noid and board instead of a msv1. I dont have short stroke issues, probably because the ram opens and closes properly.

[Pneumagger]

Bigevil: that's why I prefer the use of the QEV...it allows the ram to vent pretty much instantaneously.

Jay: well put and perfectly reasonable. However...

Tommorrow when I'm taking vids of my new Xmod , I'll get a vid of me emptying 100rnds timed through the pneumag ... we'll see how fast a DIY frame shoots.

[Carbon Blue]

i cant wait

[RRfireblade]

Bigevil: that's why I prefer the use of the QEV...it allows the ram to vent pretty much instantaneously.

Jay: well put and perfectly reasonable. However...

Tommorrow when I'm taking vids of my new Xmod , I'll get a vid of me emptying 100rnds timed through the pneumag ... we'll see how fast a DIY frame shoots.

I'm sure you can shoot it fast.

It's kinda like saying a Chevette with a SBC is the same as a Corvette since they both run 13 second 1/4s.

In this case though , your Chevette cost the same to make yourself as my Corvette.

[RRfireblade]

Not sure if anyone over here has seen this yet....

PneuCocker

This is my system on an Autococker. (I know the Vid sucks) I also have a version that removes the entire front block pneus and automates the entire firing cycle.

You'd never get the DYI to work like that on an A/C , it exploits every single flaw in the design. I''m just using that as an example at how much more precise and reliable my design is that's all. Putting on the Mag is a no brainer , I've had to design dwell into to slow it down on the Mag. Everyone who's ever shot mine swears it's electronic somewhere in there.

[etjoyride]

^WOW^ i'm not sure how i missed that one jay

[Pneumagger]

I'm sure you can shoot it fast.

It's kinda like saying a Chevette with a SBC is the same as a Corvette since they both run 13 second 1/4s.

In this case though , your Chevette cost the same to make yourself as my Corvette.

good analysis. But how many people would buid their chevette AND then Buy the Corvette. I would

[Chronobreak]

jay, i believe the pneu cocker was posted here

however i dont recall anything about the front pneumatic automation...

could you make a post of that please? im sure others are interested, i kno i am and always thought it was an overcomplicated and unncesary system.

or link fi you already posted it elsewhere

[RRfireblade]

I don't have a vid or anything. It was done on a Karnivore but WGP (Back when Bud still had some clout ) said they'd never go sans front pneus. Course they also said they'd never go sans back block back when we invented the half block/turtle design.

I think the marker is still at the Palm Coast shop tho. Next time I'm over there I'll see if it;s pic worthy.

But how many people would buid their chevette AND then Buy the Corvette. I would

I know you would. We'll see what happens. If for nothing else I'd like to at least one make it to retail. ( Don't PM me Chrono , I know you have dibs )

[mobsterboy]

good ANALOGY . But how many people would buid their chevette AND then Buy the Corvette. I would

but analysis would work within the context, up until you explain what you were talking about