DIY PneuMags & PTP

[Pneumagger]

but analysis would work within the context, up until you explain what you were talking about

BAH... The Literary Patrol

Engineers use analysis...not analogies. They only use analogies when their audience can't grap the situation mentally. We atempt to generally refrain from blowing people's heads up. Sorry if gave you headache

^^^find the split infinitive to get E-Points^^^

[CaliMagFan]

BAH... The Literary Patrol

Engineers use analysis...not analogies. They only use analogies when their audience can't grap the situation mentally. We atempt to generally refrain from blowing people's heads up. Sorry if gave you headache

^^^find the split infinitive to get E-Points^^^

" We atempt to generally refrain from ..."

do i get more points for noticing that you ended your sentence in a preposition?

"...blowing people's heads up. " "[...blowing up peoples' heads.]"

I'm not a grammar Nazi... just screwing around. <--- haha (prep.)

I am just now trolling the AO boards for the first time in several months. I m very interested in making my own pneumag at some time. Threads like this are hitting the spot. Can anyone point me to "the definative" thread on this topic?

One more thing- Why is there a dwell issue with the pneu setups at all? doesnt the pneu part just replace what you would being doing with the standard mechanical sear assembly?.

I would love more info.

-kr

[RRfireblade]

One more thing- Why is there a dwell issue with the pneu setups at all? doesnt the pneu part just replace what you would being doing with the standard mechanical sear assembly?.

I would love more info.

-kr

Yeah, if you normally pull the trigger in 10-15 ms.

[NoForts4Me]

Jay, I know you said you "don't care" much about this anymore, but that is obviously not true just based on some of the posts I've seen you make over time. I'm sure it's hard not to be frustrated in developing something that just gets dropped, especially when it appears (from the video evidence you have presented) that it is so effective. You've obviously designed something that could have been revolutionary.

I think you see posts like this, and people doing it themselves, because of the success you had, and people are just frustrated with seeing something they will never have (possibly). I know it is something I would love to have, and would buy if it ever became available. I still don't understand why there isn't a market for this, especially with the Scenario crowd. I would think a mechanical, super-fast marker would be ideal for that demographic. I could be wrong, though (and probably am). I don't think it would sell like an ION, but I think it could make a successful run as a niche product.

Anyway, I think you should take the continued interest in this as a compliment to the brief glimpses of what could have been you gave us in your short teaser vids (and I'll give credit to Nicad as well for his vid/product).

Now, if you could just hook me up with one of those sweet pumps...

[RRfireblade]

Anyway, I think you should take the continued interest in this as a compliment to the brief glimpses of what could have been you gave us in your short teaser vids (and I'll give credit to Nicad as well for his vid/product).

I do , and your right to some degree. I just don't have enough control over the outcome to make a difference so I HAVE to be able to step back and let it go. You know, I design alot of product for alot of people , most of the time I do my part and off it goes. I rarely get to see what happens till far down the road if ever. Funny thing is some of the time it surfaces in completely different places by completely different people. That's a real kicker.

What makes this hard was the personal attachment I had to the product and it's intended market. Both those things being the reason I wanted to have so much inclusion. Sometimes things just don't work out the way you hope and in this case , so much negativity had surrounded this thing that it get's hard to come here and read it over and over again and stay out of it. Especially when most of the 'info' is incorrect , incomplete or outright mi-s truthes.

Anywho....

I am glad that people are finding ways to get a taste of the product with the DIYer. I really am. But on the other hand I do get defensive to some degree when it's posted and then assumed that you can DIY for nearly no cost and get equal performance when both of that is far from the case. The 'total' costs are nearly identical to proposed retail and the performce is a long way from ideal , borderline acceptable in most cases. In addition , many of the assemblers don't even know why that is. It all potentially puts more bad 'press' around the whole thing and hurts what little chances this thing has even more.

IMO

That's pretty much it from my side.

[Pneumagger]

as far as the DIYers go, sure they work nice...but we'll never have a "professional" product at the end of the day. I guess you can we're doing what we can to get by with a solution that works

And to say that a price to performance comparison of a DIY frame to a retial frame is similar is indeed loony Sure, you can get pneumatics to your doorstep for $40...but if you dont have the tools, time, and know-how you could be looking at another $150 PLUS labor. Personally, it takes 1-2 hours a night for 2-3 nights to finish/install/tune a frame...and that's if everything goes smoothly with no problems.

I'd like to think that I do as professional a job as I can...but that is with retail pneumatics and home shop tools. Unless a we DIYers can improve somehow, A retail frame would indeed offer more for the same price...not even a question about it.

However...
I have been thinking of trying a fixed size dump chamber and using combination of QEVs and an oddly arranged 4way valve to created a limited flow pulse (dwell more or less). But great performance seems hopeful at best unless I stumble on to some sweet 4way valves as i don't have the tooling to make my valves and pistons

[Lohman446]

I think your underestimating the DIYers. My mag that you did looks very professionally done.

[BigEvil]

However...
I have been thinking of trying a fixed size dump chamber......

/Butthead voice on

"hu-hu hu hu, HE said, 'DUMP'"

[rabidchihauhau]

Jay's probably going to beat me up once again over being too provocative, or blunt or whatever, but, sorry, I'm blunt and I don't really care if the internet people like me or not...

I can't believe this is still going on.

First of all this project at PTP was generated after the following questions were asked during design and future project meetings: can a mech marker be made that will compete effectively with electros? can we design/create all of the features of an electro without electronics? what is the IP history of such devices? is there a market? what will the appeal be?

initial answers were 'yes' and 'yes' (non-electro eyes, non-electro dwell, non-electro firing modes, all 'yes'); the IP research (my job) showed an awful lot of opportunity.

is there a market? at the time (this is now almost a DECADE old) it was - maybe. we 'felt' that we could make those features less expensively, we 'felt' that getting freedom from batteries was a plus and we 'felt' that electros were not yet 'solid' enough that there was a chance to make a non-electro competitor.

the appeal was - no electronics. hey, I can fix EVERYTHING in the field. the appeal was 'no batteries' (save X per year running your marker) and the appeal was "the industry will like it because it represents an alternative to the current patent issues going on with electros".

that last was perhaps the most important and note that it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether players would want it or not. It was a STRATEGIC business plan to offer alternative licensing options to people who wanted to make high ROF markers.

because of that aspect, we spent a LOT of time developing all of the possible alternative methods for accomplishing those goals and putting them into the patent app.

Jay came into this thing at that stage. he took the working concepts and developed them into actual working models, created several really cool doohickeys to solve various engineering problems and helped create even more alternative methods for accomplishing the goal(s). I will note that while I was of the opinion that Jay's development work was the correct way to go, upper mgt did not always agree.

Jay's final working prototypes rocked. They were sleek, elegant, robust and reliable. They were developed for blow forwards, autococking and stacked blow forward markers. We had them on mags, cockers and the gun we designed for JT - the Maxis (spyder clone); the tech was transportable to any style of marker.

The patent office screwed us - plain and simple, first denying the app, then relenting, making us submit multiple apps (they failed to understand the transportability aspect) and delayed us 4+ years.

In the meantime, AGD went through its stuff and was no longer really a partner; WGP went through its stuff and was no longer really a partner, the electro market moved on 4-5 years and etc., etc.

And you people are still talking about it.

For what its worth - and I won't argue this, I'll just state it - whether someone wants to go after you or not, DIY of a patented design is not legal. Encouraging others to do it and providing them the means to do so is even more not legal.

For the record: Jay's 'final' design worked so well that everyone almost saw it on every autococker made, and several other companies were going to bring out markers based on it. It didn't happen, so - oh well. There were frustrations with it (it was fun though to think up all of the possible ways it could be done and working them into the patent app, knowing that it was going to frustrate all kinds of people who were going to say 'but I thought of that too' or 'too late, we have the patent and now you're gonna pay!' - that's me talking, not PTP or Jay - and the people those thoughts were directed at were NOT people who appear on this forum and if things had been done a little differently, the landscape of the marker industry might be vastly different today, but such is not to be and nothing is going to change the cultural/industrial/marketing conditions wer're under now that will bring it back. Its kind of like cars; internal combustion, steam and several other techs were vying to become the technology; 100+ years later, nothing is going to bring back the stanley steamer, even if it is more efficient, cleaner and cheaper. Beta max and VHS... the list goes on.

Unfortunately, the IP is still a viable product in and of itself and there are still corporate obligations of various kinds on various individuals, Jay and myself included, and so, no matter what happens, there are lots of things neither of us can talk about, show and etc. - things that would back up Jay's claims for having 'the best' design out there blah blah blah. You'll all just have to be content with the following facts:

the PTP pneumag, courtesy of Jay's development and design work, represents the epitome of pneumatic-mechanical marker development and nothing anyone else creates will surpass it; furthermore, there isn't a design possibility - with the exception of perhaps using nanotechnology - that isn't covered by the design methods we developed

it will never come to market unless something catastrophically drastic happens within the industry

you can't build one in the basement because its illegal

rant ends

[UThomas]

What sort of licensing terms would be availabe for the the technology then that would give access to the IP?

[UltraMag527]

So is serving alcohol too minors, but it happens....

[NoForts4Me]

So basically, rabidchihauhau, what you are saying is, licensing this technology and making the product will be almost impossible because too many people have too many claims to it and you could never unsort that tangled mess and make everyone happy. Right?

What you are seeing here is the same thing you see with people making "fan films" or writing books or scripts of movies, tv shows, etc. that are no longer available because they want to see it continued or be part of it. That is also probably illegal, but it happens. I still think it's a compliment to what was developed, and not malicious.

[Pneumagger]

... ... ...

That's some Pwnage

/rebuttal -
An Apache that can't keep up
Dry Fire (can't shoot lefty)

[rabidchihauhau]

Yes, it is kind of the same thing and I hope that you are aware of the fact that companies like Paramount have launched major legal campaigns in the past to reign that kind of thing in.

Licensing is one of those subjects that I am not at liberty to discuss.

No, I'm not saying what you summarized. What I'm saying is:

the market is no longer the same and it is very unlikely that market conditions will ever be favorable for the introduction of such a product.

what I'm saying is that just because you haven't driven the porsche that's under two inches of dust in the garage for ten years, doesn't somehow remove your property rights to the porsche: no one can just walk into your house, take the keys and drive it off because 'you aren't doing anything with it' - and the analogy is perfectly apt and spot on target: IP IS PROPERTY and you can't just 'use it'.

The proper thing to do in this case is to either figure out a non-patented way to accomplish the design goal (highly unlikely), try and obtain a legal version from the owners (highly unlikely) or forget about it and move on.

So basically, rabidchihauhau, what you are saying is, licensing this technology and making the product will be almost impossible because too many people have too many claims to it and you could never unsort that tangled mess and make everyone happy. Right?

What you are seeing here is the same thing you see with people making "fan films" or writing books or scripts of movies, tv shows, etc. that are no longer available because they want to see it continued or be part of it. That is also probably illegal, but it happens. I still think it's a compliment to what was developed, and not malicious.

[UThomas]

For those interested in Colin's actual patent, you can check it out here:

http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/US006990971.pdf

Bear in mind, knowing you're infringing a patent gives them the right to 3x the damages. What would be 3x the "but if" sales of a product not going to market?

But I am curious about licensing options... AND the autococker adaptation. (edit - just saw not going to talk about licensing. Is that because its a public forum? I'll discuss offline)