Paintball and Economic Terrorism

[RRfireblade]

Pretty one sided , heavily biased and shallow view of reality.

Typical thought process of someone who's never been in the thick of the related subject matter.


Yay for opinion.

[Automagsam]

I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

It is Economic terrorism because companies are using dirty tactics for there own economic advantage. Now you may go look it up in the dictionary, but if you noticed within my lecture I used "" around the term, so it is me using it in the that context, If you wish to argue thats not true companies are not doing that go right ahead, but I think any arguement over what the term means is asinine because the big picture is not a definition of the term.

Now about the X-mag,yes I do understand part of it was the sluggish sales and production costs, but you yourself even pointed out

"The SP issue was only one small factor and it affected more the development and release of a NEW e-marker than the dropping of the old one. But even if SP did not even exist, the AGD E-series markers would have been discontinued."

so at least you admit the threat was there, however I don't think you can weigh the effect it had on the X-mag, since you don't know, you've only read what people have typed, heck I don't know I wasn't in that board room or whatever when they decided to drop it, but one thing we do know is it did have an effect and that is the point here.

[Mind'sEye]

I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

ICD seems to be doing fine under it's licensing agreement with SP. The newly released Mini has some innovative system integration developments. The SP approach may seem unscrupulous, but it has not affected competition to the same extent that the Microsoft Windows operating/licensing system has in the computing world. If you look further back you'll find that Tom has said that the cost of redesigning and manufacturing a new E/Xmag platform was as much a factor in dropping development as paying a licensing fee to SP. It comes down to whether or not you have a product that is cost effective and desirable enough in today's marketing climate to make a profit.

[snoopay700]

I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.

[Lohman446]

I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.

Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?

[snoopay700]

Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?

No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.

[GT]

Yes but im not sure if your aware of this but certain genes are becoming patened, such as one of the diabetes strands, and we are having to pay to study certain diseases. It is not right to put a patent on genes period, this is something that cannot be invented thus it should not be patented, it only hinders developing cures and or solutions.

WTF?????


This thread keeps getting better.

[Automagsam]

WTF?????


This thread keeps getting better.

Oh you didn't know that did you...

"A new study shows that 20 percent of human genes have been patented in the United States, primarily by private firms and universities."

here is the article from the national geographic ...I guess its a little more serious than the patenting of gatorade....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1013_051013_gene_patent.html

First, the Act was designed, and works very well, at allowing universities and not-for-profits to patent and tradmark research for federally funded projects. The cool part in all this is that the founding team retains some of the rights as does the university. The universty can then transfer the rights to another party for commercialization. The university then derives monetary compensation for the use of the technology. The best example of this is Gatorade out of the University of Florida.

(What you GT said earlier) If you were trying to give an example of what the act did why did you use Gatorade which the first flavor came out in 1969, when the act wasn't even put into effect till 1980? Hardly the best example.

[Lohman446]

No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.

Have I ever successful run a business in a competetive environment? Yeh, rather well

[BigEvil]

Have I ever successful run a business in a competetive environment? Yeh, rather well

So why is it doing so well? Did you sue the competition into oblivion? Or do you just have a much better product/service than your competators?

If I had to guess.. I would say that you get up in the morning, go to work, bust your ***, and have developed a loyal customer base, probably by doing what you do well and striving to do it better than anyone else. Not by sicing a battery of lawyers on the other guys.


I understand the other side of this issue, however it sickens me to the point of vomitting.

[Lohman446]

So why is it doing so well? Did you sue the competition into oblivion? Or do you just have a much better product/service than your competators?

If I had to guess.. I would say that you get up in the morning, go to work, bust your ***, and have developed a loyal customer base, probably by doing what you do well and striving to do it better than anyone else. Not by sicing a battery of lawyers on the other guys.


I understand the other side of this issue, however it sickens me to the point of vomitting.

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".

[snoopay700]

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".

Trying to patent all electrical means of firing a marker is not protecting one's intellectual property. Also, i was never claiming it's easy to run a business, no clue where in the hell you got that idea, i was simply saying that just because companies in other industries sue to get ahead doesn't make it right.

[Coralis]

My take on the whole situation is that the patent is way to vague and broad its like allowing Ford (insert any car manufacturer) to be able to patent internal combustion powered car or allowing a pharmaceutical company to patent all nsaids under one patent. The patients should be invalidated and the affected companies should have to resubmit for actual designs of there marker and not just a theory of operation for a electrically trigger pneumatic device for shooting paintballs.

[RRfireblade]

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so.

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ?

[latches109]

American Heritage Dictionary
Terrorism
n. The unlawful use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The word economic is an adjective describing the type of terrorism.

What is occurring in the paintball industry pertaining to patents is not unlawful.

Defending patents to ensure profits and creating barriers to market entry are normal.

American Heritage Dictionary
Game Theory
n. A mathematical method of decision-making in which a competitive situation is analyzed to determine the optimal course of action for an interested party, often used in political, economic, and military planning. Also called theory of games.

Atlas Shrugged by Ann Rand. The book parallels your notions of economic/business/industry cannibalism. Also studying Game Theory, Industrial Organization (covering strategic entry barriers) and law & economics (covering the economics of lawsuits), might change your opinion. fun thread to read none the less.