Paintball and Economic Terrorism

[RRfireblade]

I am not affraid you simply didn't answer my question before and instead asked me one. So you do agree about Tom Kaye's statement on the industry?

You don't answer any questions , you simple use someone elses answers as you own. Then you change the question when you don't like the answers you get.

Yes , he is wrong IMO.

Most if not all of the companies in business today are making the majority of thier money developing and selling new products. I don't think there is even a question to that fact or any proof to the contrary.

[Automagsam]

No - because TK was making these statements a year ago and I can look at the new products that have been offered in the last year.

Yes but this quote is from a week or so ago, and thats fine, you think he is wrong, that is your opinion. This thread is to point out the turmoil of the industry no matter who is doing it, good or bad. If you don't think there is an issue, and I'm not saying the issue just started, I just personally believe it's progressively getting worse. Now others feel that the industry is improving, but that is their opinion.

[RRfireblade]

Yes but this quote is from a week or so ago, and thats fine, you think he is wrong, that is your opinion. This thread is to point out the turmoil of the industry no matter who is doing it, good or bad. If you don't think there is an issue, and I'm not saying the issue just started, I just personally believe it's progressively getting worse. Now others feel that the industry is improving, but that is their opinion.

You have not stated one single fact that proves your feelings other than stating other peoples opinions. That's the problem. :)

[AGD]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

[craltal]

Well first off I never said I worshipped Tom K, I was simply qutoing him on the state of the Industry. Do you think he is wrong?

Well, you subsequent posts seem to take his statement as the word of god.

It's one man's opinion. He does not have all of the facts, nobody does. As Jay said, he decided that he would rather dabble elsewhere than tie up resources in paintball. He even stated the he does not like the environment. Does this mean he's wrong for stepping away? No, it's a decision that he made believing it's in his best interest, not mine, not yours, not the paintball community in general. His.

I greatly respect what he has done for the technology of paintball, but that doesn't mean I believe as infallible truth every word he utters.

[dons NOMEX jumpsuit]
This is not directed at you, but this whole argument brings to mind an observation that I find disturbing. I truly believe the art of argument is dying and people don't look at both sides of a situation, judge the facts, and form their own opinions anymore. They regurgitate the opinions of the talking heads on TV, or the pulpit, or wherever.

[Automagsam]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

Oh and as a student Tom is one of my role models tho.

[RRfireblade]

Tom , trust me some of see it just fine.

I've also seen it be like that for long time. Theres always risk , it always take money theres always bridges to cross.

The difference here is you come from back when the industry wasn't even and industry and was held together be a handfull of small family based (generally) business treating the sport like a cool new hobby that they might could make a living in.

Now it's a full fledged business and an 'Industry' like any other and along with that all the typical conflicts. You see it every where else and it's nothing really new here. Only now in a larger scale porportionate to the current size of paintball now as an industry on it's own.

[RRfireblade]

Nothings going to 'not' change or go back to the way it was.

Funny thing is everyone loved the growth when it was good for them and they didn't have to change thier practices. Now all of a sudden , you don;t like the things that come along with it.

That's life and business in all it's glory. :)

[Lohman446]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

The only thing that concerns me right now is the amount of patents being "sat" on. My undersatnding of the Pulse lawsuit is it was not over the feed system (which seemed awfully similar) but over the RF system, something that was not even readily available or known to the general paintball world. That at its base concerns me, as good ideas are simply being patented and set aside for later profitability.

When you invented the automag you had a need of the player in mind: A reliable semi-automatic paintball marker.

When you introduced HPA (or MPA) you had a need in mind: A consistant air source to feed the automag.

When you introduced the warp you had a specific need in mind: To move the hopper off the marker, and introduce a force feed system to the paintball world - I assume to help alleviate chops in markers.

The problem with innovation now. If we do not change something fundamentally we have what we need. Markers capable of firing for us up to the speed limit currently imposed, air systems to feed them, and hoppers to feed them. The pulse seemed to just be an improvement over the Empire, it was not innovative.

What need is there in paintball today? A tankless marker? Possibly, but as the warp has taught us things need to be a clear improvement, and we are not sure that we would really like a tankless marker as players. The fact of the matter is a tankless marker already exists, and if the above mentioned lawsuit makes it an economic liability to have HPA or CO2 tanks due to insurance, we might see a need made here.

Without a need in paintball what can a company truly inovate?

[craltal]

Yes, there are a number of legal actions that are ongoing, but I think that is more of a factor of our culture.
There is so much fear that lawyers are involved with everything now. The culture that TK started building marker in is gone. It's not specific to paintball, it a systemic problem that permeates our culture in general.

Anybody remember the kid who placed a freshly filled 20oz CO2 tank next to the baseboard heater in his room and was surprised when it exploded? Remember his mom's reaction? Seeing if the shop that filled it or the manufacturer was responsible so she could sue somebody?

[Automagsam]

Nothings going to 'not' change or go back to the way it was.

Funny thing is everyone loved the growth when it was good for them and they didn't have to change thier practices. Now all of a sudden , you don;t like the things that come along with it.

That's life and business in all it's glory. :)

Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke

[snoopay700]

Only Tom knows.

A TON of new products and markers have come out since that statement. All in at lower than ever pricing , all surpassing performance and bang for the buck by a long shot from previous product.

New loaders, entry level markers , marker upgrades . . .


What else is there ?

Only thing that hasn't really changed in the last 1-2 years is paint prices interestingly enough.

You really auto stop basing your whole arguement on a few statements from a few bias and jaded people.

I'm going to have to edit this because i haven't read all of the way through, but a bunch of new markers have come out since last week? If you don't believe me look in sam's other thread with AGD right in the title.

[Lohman446]

Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke

Protecting ones established intellectual property is not evil... why can you not seem to grasp that?

[craltal]

Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke

Now you're throwing out "intellectual" quotes? Oh brother. Please join us in the real world, not the glorified halls of academia you apparently are holed up in.

[Automagsam]

Protecting ones established intellectual property is not evil... why can you not seem to grasp that?

But protecting ones established intellectual property is exactly what companies like AGD AKA, and others now are doing, it is the the other companies that are using dirty but legal tactics to make money. Plus it is a quote, in other words I'm saying, if you sit back and just are like "oh its been like this for a while oh well what can we do", you are ultimately helping the problem.