Paintball and Economic Terrorism

[BigEvil]

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".

I understand that.. and I agree people should, by all means be able to protect what is theres. Im sure the gardners dont think they are screwing anyone, or are being greedy.. but that's how it end up. It's not illegal, and is an 'acceptable business practice'.. but just because it is, doesnt mean some of the things are not morally questionable.. or at the very least highly unpopular.

People also dont wake up in the morning and say "Oh, let me go kill my unborn baby", yet thousands of woman have abortions every year. It is legal and within their rights, but it does not make it 'right'. But those people have their reasons, and Im sure that (Insert person here) would have reasons of their own.

So while it is within their rights to go around and do what they do.. it doesnt mean that anyone has to like it. I excersise my disaproval everytime I pass on a Smart Parts product and purchase something else.

What is also so disturbing to many of us, is just how absurd the whole situation is. I believe that this is a case of the inmates running the asylum. Oh well. I guess I shouldnt really give a damn... it's non of my concern anyhow. And when you think about it, if Smart Parts didnt do it first, someone else would have.

[Automagsam]

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so.

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ?

Saying that any of us would do the same things is a pretty bad statement, cause in no way would I sue my way into money. You can say its really easy to be all high and mighty, but its not, actually its harder, the easy way is to sue everyone. And if everyone was the way you say it is then how come there are companies like AGD that don't sue there way for money??? Were they all "high and mighty" no, they did not take the easy way out. Now you give this whole analogy on school and stuff, but I'd never BS my way through an essay in the first place, cause that is plane easy and taking the easy way out, oh but thats not what you want to here, didn't think so.

[Tao]

not necessarily SP and electro triggers...

The slow in development I don't think is due to the Smart Parts lawsuits (although I see a trend starting...). What does the smart parts lawsuit have to do with anything with the "inovativeness" formerly saw in paintball. We saw innovations such as compressed air, force feed loaders, and electronic triggers. Why all of a sudden do inovations sease just because it is a pain to make an electro trigger? A paintball marker doesn't revolve around an electro trigger it is simply another inovation....

Pnemags are new inovations. I haven't really bothered following their progress, but I get the idea that the technology isn't necesarily pantented (I could be wrong...I don't even know if all the bugs are worked out even). If this new technology could work and just as well as electro guns, why doesn't AGD make a new X mag using this technology instead??


I do agree that a trend is starting in the wake of the SP lawsuits and the pulse is a good example. It was an inovative product and is getting shot down over who even knows??? I don't think companies should live in fear of getting sued when they invent something new...that is what the patent office is for. Come up with an idea, check to see if it is patented yet, if not make it. Simple process, just have to be patient to run through all the patents....waiting even a year to release something new is better than not making anything at all...

And for what its worth, I am surprised that the patent for electronic triggers (wo ever has it) has kept their patent since I would think it is pretty much public domain (which if something becomes so poular and well known the patent is lost).

[snoopay700]

The slow in development I don't think is due to the Smart Parts lawsuits (although I see a trend starting...). What does the smart parts lawsuit have to do with anything with the "inovativeness" formerly saw in paintball. We saw innovations such as compressed air, force feed loaders, and electronic triggers. Why all of a sudden do inovations sease just because it is a pain to make an electro trigger? A paintball marker doesn't revolve around an electro trigger it is simply another inovation....

Pnemags are new inovations. I haven't really bothered following their progress, but I get the idea that the technology isn't necesarily pantented (I could be wrong...I don't even know if all the bugs are worked out even). If this new technology could work and just as well as electro guns, why doesn't AGD make a new X mag using this technology instead??


I do agree that a trend is starting in the wake of the SP lawsuits and the pulse is a good example. It was an inovative product and is getting shot down over who even knows??? I don't think companies should live in fear of getting sued when they invent something new...that is what the patent office is for. Come up with an idea, check to see if it is patented yet, if not make it. Simple process, just have to be patient to run through all the patents....waiting even a year to release something new is better than not making anything at all...

And for what its worth, I am surprised that the patent for electronic triggers (wo ever has it) has kept their patent since I would think it is pretty much public domain (which if something becomes so poular and well known the patent is lost).

The way it has slowed progress is exactly as Tom said for some, which is they're afraid of getting sued so they don't make anything new. The other reason is because they've got a marker that they've convinced people is the best (most companies) so they just refurbish it and sell it the following year as new, yet there have been no new innovations.

Pnuemags are a bit different because those are made by modders, not companies. Anyway, there is a patent on pnuemags, Pro Team Products has one and i believe Deadly Wind (if it's someone else correct me) has a patent on a different pnuematic design. The difference here is that Tom can't and won't make a new mag based off of this, because again, teh lawsuit problem comes up (ptp is pretty known for lawsuits in this area i believe). The only reason people are allowed to make them is because they aren't selling it as a product, and i'm not sure if the design is different or not.

Again, like i said, it stops progress by fear and if they did get their blanket patent passed it would stop other companies from making electric markers (after a while i'm sure most companies would stop) so it would be a monopoly. The fact that they even attempted this is contemptable enough. Also, what if you make up a design and you make a prototype, but you find out one aspect of it might infringe a patent or something, you're then risking a lawsuit because that is what people in this industry have led to.

Anyway, sp didn't get the patent, but they tried to get it after electrics had been on the market for a while. It wasn't their design, but they wanted to create a monopoly so they would have the lowest prices yet still make a very decent profit. Also, i don't know how true that whole thing about if something becomes popular enough and used widely enough is true, because there was actually a guy not too far from where i live who found out that there was no patent on the wing nut, even though it had been used for ages, so he asked a patent lawyer if he could patent it and he actually was granted the patent and now gets a few extra thousand per month or few months or something like that. I mean he patented a product that was already in wide use, so i question the validity of your claim.

[damageINC]

So I kind of got sick of the long winded stuff about 9 posts ago, but I was wondering....is there a statute of limitation on how long a patent holder may hold exclusive rights on said patent? I know, for instance, that in the biotech industry there is (I used to work in it). Companies may research, design, and patent anything they want....and if the patent goes through successfully, they have (I believe) and 8 year window to the exclusive rights of said patent. This is to turn a deserved profit without unfair competition.

After that time, the product may enter public domain and other companies can legally reverse engineer the design. A good example would hospital sterilizers or viagra. Once that initial window expires, generic companies may legally reverse engineer either one and sell it on the cheap. So wouldn't SP's strangle hold on the electronic paintball marker be up by now? Or am I mistaken?

[shartley]

I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

It is Economic terrorism because companies are using dirty tactics for there own economic advantage. Now you may go look it up in the dictionary, but if you noticed within my lecture I used "" around the term, so it is me using it in the that context, If you wish to argue thats not true companies are not doing that go right ahead, but I think any arguement over what the term means is asinine because the big picture is not a definition of the term.

Now about the X-mag,yes I do understand part of it was the sluggish sales and production costs, but you yourself even pointed out so at least you admit the threat was there, however I don't think you can weigh the effect it had on the X-mag, since you don't know, you've only read what people have typed, heck I don't know I wasn't in that board room or whatever when they decided to drop it, but one thing we do know is it did have an effect and that is the point here.

I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.

Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?

No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so.

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ?

[RRfireblade]

Saying that any of us would do the same things is a pretty bad statement, cause in no way would I sue my way into money. You can say its really easy to be all high and mighty, but its not, actually its harder, the easy way is to sue everyone. And if everyone was the way you say it is then how come there are companies like AGD that don't sue there way for money??? Were they all "high and mighty" no, they did not take the easy way out. Now you give this whole analogy on school and stuff,


but I'd never BS my way through an essay in the first place, cause that is plane easy and taking the easy way out, oh but thats not what you want to here, didn't think so.

You only say that cause you think you are right and they are wrong in the situation.

What if you felt you were in the right ?

And I'm sure you neer put a single word in an essay that didn't have 100% relevance.

[CaliMagFan]

is it a speech, is it an essay? does he know what subject verb agreement is? sorry autogasm, this is a poorly written and ill conceived piece. i wont sit and berate you about the accuracy of your factual claims- this is just poor writing from the start. it is just an internet forum, but when you give the allusion that you're writiing/ speaking this on the serious you should really try and come through with a well-thought and written piece. good try. maybe a peer edit, but of an earlier draft. kyro

[Automagsam]

is it a speech, is it an essay? does he know what subject verb agreement is? sorry autogasm, this is a poorly written and ill conceived piece. i wont sit and berate you about the accuracy of your factual claims- this is just poor writing from the start. it is just an internet forum, but when you give the allusion that you're writiing/ speaking this on the serious you should really try and come through with a well-thought and written piece. good try. maybe a peer edit, but of an earlier draft. kyro

I wasn't aware I would be graded for this. and I hope the rest of you realise you are very hypocritical, because you keep saying we only see it one way, when you are doing the same thing. Show me evidence that SP, did not file those lawsuits against all the companies, and I will step down and never post in this thread again, cause if that was the case SP would have never (though they did it legally and I understand that) sued people to get where they are. And for those who want to turn this into an English Class go to www.writing.com you can criticize writing styles there.

[shartley]

I wasn't aware I would be graded for this. and I hope the rest of you realise you are very hypocritical, because you keep saying we only see it one way, when you are doing the same thing. Show me evidence that SP, did not file those lawsuits against all the companies, and I will step down and never post in this thread again, cause if that was the case SP would have never (though they did it legally and I understand that) sued people to get where they are. And for those who want to turn this into an English Class go to www.writing.com you can criticize writing styles there.

[RRfireblade]

The simple fact and biggest flaw in your whole thought process is this . . .

None of the SP nonsence had any real effect on PBs economic state.

Simple as that. :)

You want to take a stab at something that is grounded in actual fact ? Here's a little insight from someone IN the industry , been on all 3 sides , and has a pretty good idea.

3 things :

1) Start with the mass industry change to asian manufacturing (over seas) and importing of paintball product.

2) Internet marketing and sales of non brick and mortor retaillers dominating the major paintball market share.

3) Majority of all paintball product distribution being controlled by an extremely small number of business , who BTW , practice heavily in 1) and 2).

There. Now you have a basis of fact worthy of a lecture.

Go get 'em tiger.

[snoopay700]

Shartley, i only said that people were saying it was ok because that is how they made it sound. Now that you've elaborated on that i understand a bit better and it makes more sense to me. My main argument i guess is that sp starting the whole suing trend is destroying paintball and that they're morally a horrible company for what they tried to do. I guess that's all i really have to say, i won't rant on anymore.

[RRfireblade]

They most certainly did not.

[snoopay700]

They most certainly did not.

Wait, what? I don't see anything in my post that that is really relevant to, so if you could tell me which part exactly i'd appreciate it, cause at this point i'm just a little confused.

[RRfireblade]

Paintball Companys have been sueing each other well before SP got famous for it. :)

Just for example , WDP was the holder of the title before they took on SP and became the Hulk Hogan of paintball. ( bad analogy I'm sure :) )