Paintball and Economic Terrorism

[latches109]

Ok let me ask you a question are companies through buisness, suing other companies to make money?

really how much did they make? Who made what? Show me some real data not just wild-eyed obligatory comments with flawed economic views. You clearly miss many objectives of patent lawsuits due to your lack of knowledge in the subject.

[RRfireblade]

I will clarify,



Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame.

Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over. Where are those patents being fought over coming from ? Check the dates , most or not that old. Where is the product coming from ? You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore. Just because it's people you no longer 'know' doesn't mean they aren't there. I'd like to see a finance guy stick a whole Timmy in a single tube and make it work. :)

Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost. That's why there are so many high quality , high performance markers out now under $400. At this point , many companies are also satisfied with thier share of the market and prefer to focus on thier specific nitche. Dye and spoolers , WGP and Cockers , BL/Timmy and Rammed poppets , SP and thier spooler ,etc. There are only so many ways to fire a paintball :) and then you have to have the means to produce the product if it's even practical to do so. I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs , but neither of those failed for anything other than a means to produce. That's just business anywhere. Hundreds of great ides never make for one reason or another. It's not alway evil intent. Mike Quinn and his Patented Mq valve . . . where is it now ? Finances. . . that's what happens when your engineer handles the finances.

Anywho . . .

This thread went arond a whole lot of nothing really.

The comments that started it and still hit the point IMO is little more than the 'Lecture' posted is little more than an uniformed , one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

I leave my last comment at that. Good day all. :)

[Tao]

The way it has slowed progress is exactly as Tom said for some, which is they're afraid of getting sued so they don't make anything new. The other reason is because they've got a marker that they've convinced people is the best (most companies) so they just refurbish it and sell it the following year as new, yet there have been no new innovations.

Pnuemags are a bit different because those are made by modders, not companies. Anyway, there is a patent on pnuemags, Pro Team Products has one and i believe Deadly Wind (if it's someone else correct me) has a patent on a different pnuematic design. The difference here is that Tom can't and won't make a new mag based off of this, because again, teh lawsuit problem comes up (ptp is pretty known for lawsuits in this area i believe). The only reason people are allowed to make them is because they aren't selling it as a product, and i'm not sure if the design is different or not.

Again, like i said, it stops progress by fear and if they did get their blanket patent passed it would stop other companies from making electric markers (after a while i'm sure most companies would stop) so it would be a monopoly. The fact that they even attempted this is contemptable enough. Also, what if you make up a design and you make a prototype, but you find out one aspect of it might infringe a patent or something, you're then risking a lawsuit because that is what people in this industry have led to.

Anyway, sp didn't get the patent, but they tried to get it after electrics had been on the market for a while. It wasn't their design, but they wanted to create a monopoly so they would have the lowest prices yet still make a very decent profit. Also, i don't know how true that whole thing about if something becomes popular enough and used widely enough is true, because there was actually a guy not too far from where i live who found out that there was no patent on the wing nut, even though it had been used for ages, so he asked a patent lawyer if he could patent it and he actually was granted the patent and now gets a few extra thousand per month or few months or something like that. I mean he patented a product that was already in wide use, so i question the validity of your claim.

Well it should be up to the patent office to have things in order to make it as easy as possible as possible for people to search to see if an invention has already been done.

I am surprised someone would have got a patent for wingnuts when not even inventing them, if the orriginal inventor is still alive he can patent it (and rip the other patent away) with no problem..at last the way the system is supposed to work in the US.

I might be confusing copyright laws with patent laws with the "public domain" thing...

...on a side note...I wonder if anyone has a pantent on electronic trippers in Canada....different system first come first serve :P

[Tao]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

Thats a shame....what else can be said?

I guess we can all hold some hope that you are still out there and may return when the skies clear :)

[RRfireblade]

Well it should be up to the patent office to have things in order to make it as easy as possible as possible for people to search to see if an invention has already been done.

I am surprised someone would have got a patent for wingnuts when not even inventing them, if the orriginal inventor is still alive he can patent it (and rip the other patent away) with no problem..at last the way the system is supposed to work in the US.

I might be confusing copyright laws with patent laws with the "public domain" thing...

...on a side note...I wonder if anyone has a pantent on electronic trippers in Canada....different system first come first serve :P

Should be but not. Here's the Patent rub . . . well there are many really but . . .

But say your a small company (this is a true story) and Patent a great idea. Many big companies have departments whose only job is to scan the USPTO for new product ,evaluate the risk and use the patent art for the rip off. They are just waiting for the grant to hit. Happens all the time.

I know more that a few engineers that rufuse to patent anything and prefer to take a chance with out in the hopes that by the time they get ripped , they've already taped the market or have the design sold. Thereby giving no advance peeks and them a small headstart.

Then you have the USPTO full of a variety of examiners of vastly differing skill levels. They can place your idea anywhere , against any field of invention they feel applies (often it doesn't) and may or may not do the neccessary research to confidently approve the grant. We've been C&D by other companies holding patents on product we've been biulding for years before thier patent because and examiner did a half *** job. Pretty much how SP got theirs built up as it is. It's a crap shoot and once it's granted there's nothig you can do against the Govnt. There are only a handful of Patent attornies in the US even qualified to take a wrongfull granting to court against the USPTO and to my knowledge, I dont think it's ever been done.

[Automagsam]

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame.

Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over. Where are those patents being fought over coming from ? Check the dates , most or not that old. Where is the product coming from ? You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore. Just because it's people you no longer 'know' doesn't mean they aren't there. I'd like to see a finance guy stick a whole Timmy in a single tube and make it work. :)

Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost. That's why there are so many high quality , high performance markers out now under $400. At this point , many companies are also satisfied with thier share of the market and prefer to focus on thier specific nitche. Dye and spoolers , WGP and Cockers , BL/Timmy and Rammed poppets , SP and thier spooler ,etc. There are only so many ways to fire a paintball :) and then you have to have the means to produce the product if it's even practical to do so. I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs , but neither of those failed for anything other than a means to produce. That's just business anywhere. Hundreds of great ides never make for one reason or another. It's not alway evil intent. Mike Quinn and his Patented Mq valve . . . where is it now ? Finances. . . that's what happens when your engineer handles the finances.

Anywho . . .

This thread went arond a whole lot of nothing really.

The comments that started it and still hit the point IMO is little more than the 'Lecture' posted is little more than an uniformed , one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

I leave my last comment at that. Good day all. :)

Wait your calling what Tom said close minded?

[AGD]

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame.

"You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore."

If your going to call me closed minded at least make your rebuttal accurate. I said people who RUN the companies are not engineer types.

Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over.

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.

Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost.

If you feel that simplifying production and minimizing costs represent innovation then I can see why your happy. Perhaps I am old school here and its a good thing I am retired.

I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs...

WOW, I am completely surprised you would say this with authority. Not only are you completely wrong, it further illustrates my point that the paintball player only sees the surface of the water.

one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

If this is the opinion of the general paintball public then the industry is in good hands. Considering Smart Parts was the object of the biggest hate movement ever in paintball and today reins as one of the industries fastest growing companies, your opinions could very well represent the intelligence of the average player.

AGD

[RRfireblade]

If your going to call me closed minded at least make your rebuttal accurate. I said people who RUN the companies are not engineer types.

I agreed with that , large successful business' are rarely run by engineer "types". They do far better being run by those how understand all aspects of business and how to make a gain on an investment. If you let an engineer 'type' run the business then your not in business for long. I stand on my statement of you being close minded. You only see the glass half empty , no possibilities for triumph , only darkness and disaster in the sport. There was a time when some might have called you a visionary , where is that vision now ?

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.

Sure , it was MUCH easier back then. Paintball was still largely a grass roots bases sport run by small companies who in many cases , paintball was not even thier primary business. You didn't even know what anyone else was working on till they showed up with it at an event. Now the info gets passed around on the net faster then you can say USPTO. Innovation was far easier back then too , the sport was wide open and "innovation" often came from simply the porting over of existing technology and product from other related fields. It's alot easier to be innovative when your looking at a blank slate. You know there was alot more innovation in the automotive field back in the 1900s too.

If you feel that simplifying production and minimizing costs represent innovation then I can see why your happy. Perhaps I am old school here and its a good thing I am retired.

I suppose you have the right to feel that innovation is only limited to your own interpretation of it. Pretty open minded there. I suppose simplicity of design and efficiency of manufacture in order to lower retail pricing and gain larger market share have no merit. Your right , good thing you are retired . . . it was going to happen anyway with that frame of thought. :)


, I am completely surprised you would say this with authority. Not only are you completely wrong, it further illustrates my point that the paintball player only sees the surface of the water.

Oh , I didn't mean to say 'much' in the statement , should've been more like 'of'. The point was that there are reasons beyond SP that markers haven't made it to market. Those were some just examples. In any case I was to understand you had knowledge of the DW marker and how it functions , if not then a stand corrected , as for the OTB , I was at the event when Josh went off to show it to you to calm his concerns about his design similarities to the Mag valve. Hmm , that's a wierd one. :) 'Nother FYI , I''ve been a little more than just a player for a while.

If this is the opinion of the general paintball public then the industry is in good hands. Considering Smart Parts was the object of the biggest hate movement ever in paintball and today reins as one of the industries fastest growing companies, your opinions could very well represent the intelligence of the average player.

I thought you had learned your lessons about how the internet relates to real life here on these forums. Guess not. Probably 95% of the SP bashing never made off the net. I'm out there and was out there then at events and Tournys and at the shows and I guess you'll be suprised to know the vast majority of the paintball public (Parents alike)didn't have a clue what it was all about, many still don't. An internet forum is a pretty poor way to gauge the public at large , just a little fyi. The rest of my statement was in regard to the validity of the lecture. One typically expects statements and opinions to be backed up by a little more than 'He said ,she saids ' gathered up from a paintball forum.

Nice slam on my intelligence tho , didn't expect someone of your high moral fortitude to go there. Guess you showed me again.


AGD

[Lohman446]

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.

I don't think there is a lot of disagreement here. It was a time when the sport was experiencing incredible growth, the companies supplying it were not so much competing with each other as working together to build a bigger pie, and there were far less patents being enforced to cause legal issues. The companies were not big enough to feel that it was economically viable to protect patents in court - a guess based on your response to the Colonial.

However, as big business practices got involved, right around the time of a rapid slow down in growth, it is not surprising to see business practices based around large business in a smaller growth industry. We basically came out of a mom and pop manufacturing community with incredible growth to a big business community with mediocre growth in the span of two years. There were bound to be drastic changes.

[shartley]

I don't think there is a lot of disagreement here. It was a time when the sport was experiencing incredible growth, the companies supplying it were not so much competing with each other as working together to build a bigger pie, and there were far less patents being enforced to cause legal issues. The companies were not big enough to feel that it was economically viable to protect patents in court - a guess based on your response to the Colonial.

However, as big business practices got involved, right around the time of a rapid slow down in growth, it is not surprising to see business practices based around large business in a smaller growth industry. We basically came out of a mom and pop manufacturing community with incredible growth to a big business community with mediocre growth in the span of two years. There were bound to be drastic changes.

[AGD]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

[turbo chicken]

AGD/Tom please answer my question

I read all i could and the only thing i can think of now is that someone mentioned a meeting in a board room where the decision was made to discontinue electro's for AGD

now ... did you and said staff actually meet in a "board room" with fancy furniture and plants in the corner ??

I kinda pictured some guys in a shop saying "Dang ... we're loosing money on this thing ... well it make since to stop then." ... "lets make more nailguns!!!"

[RRfireblade]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

Certainly and bravo back to you sir. I appreciate that. I never really felt we were THAT for off from each other only looking at it thru different glass.

Look , I can totally see your prospective as well , really I can. I have been around both sides between K2 , BE before that , w/ PTP and other little guys. (Now a little garage setup trying it out on my own in a TINY scale) I've seen the change and don't like it all either. I certainly agree that not everything that comes with growth is good. I live in Orlando , anytime you wanna trade rush hour commutes , your on !! The old days will always be good ,they always are. We'd all love to go back for a soda and a good chat. But back then lets argue you had 25% of the market share of a few 1000 players. Would it be so bad to have 2.5% of 100K today ?

What I was really trying to get at even tho it probably got mangled , is that we all have a choice to make in this type of climate. We have to roll with the changes (or try if you care) or let it roll by. Things just don't go back , never do. To much global involved , to much everything.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen , don't dare claim to. I don't think it's going to go away , in fact my current feeling (hint hint) is that there IS room opening up for small custom or semi custom business again. With all the corporate nonsense going on , none of them want to cater to the small demo anymore. Thats perfect for the small guy and there's less of them around now. Could be perfect for AGD. There is innovation out there not in patent, just have to find it. That's what you smart guys have always done right ? :)

The future of paintball as a whole long term . . . that is a tough one. I think long term the game will change into smaller game overall. The problem I see is not big business but small business , liability and land development. Golf courses are taking hits now for the first time in a longtime , you just can't have large parcels of land devoted to a minority of the community. Paintball is the same. My 5+ year guess is we're looking at a backyard rec/woods sport and 'maybe' a dedicated pro league with a handful of fields dedicated to that. And then scenerio games being big annual events here and there taking up the slack not unlike that of historical re-creation type events. Hard to say , just a guess.

I think the 'big' growth is over (obviously) , the weeding out is in process (internet marketing) things will probably run level for a little while. Guess we'll see.

Couple of notes :

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.

Ginos been doing that since day one.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

Untill the USPTO fires all the current examiners , re-evaluates it's long history of errors , over turns those and comes up with a standard for paintball that falls in line with 'common' fields of invention. Look at the number of Patents for a golf tee. You think paintball has it bad?

And as I mentioned earlier , there a thousand more people making a thousands more product each day. Paintball is a simple game of simple tactics and basic equiptment needs. Eventually there's not going to be much left to be 'New'. 20+ years on devepment and your going to hear a whole lot of "Yeah , I already though of that." :)


Lastly , I stand by this as being the biggest hit paintball has seen so far :

3 things :

1) Start with the mass industry change to asian manufacturing (over seas) and importing of paintball product.

2) Internet marketing and sales of non brick and mortor retaillers dominating the major paintball market share.

3) Majority of all paintball product distribution being controlled by an extremely small number of business , who BTW , practice heavily in 1) and 2).

Thanks for your time. Only time can speak the truth. :)

[Super_Stalker]

Nice effort, I don't agree with some of it and it seems to be a rather biased post; but good job non the less.

[Automagsam]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

Speaking of your scientific nature (this is totally off topic) but are you into Michael Chrichton and any of his idea's, you seem like you two would get along.

Oh and Fireblade, thanks for bringing the other side to this, it is better for everyone when you can see both sides to the coin, and I really admire your arguing (in a good way) cause some one needs to stand up to this stubborn kid (me) and get other viewpoints out there lol, thats what is awesome about science. But yeah this whole paintball thing is sorta nonlinear, so i guess only time will show who is right lol,a nd like Tom said we can revisit this.