Deleting threads, stupid or not

[ThePixelGuru]

Try here http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=166992

I suppose you could search too

Oh, that's funny. Somehow when I read the "Rules" thread I thought that all the rules would be there. I obeyed those rules, I got banned. I was not aware that I was supposed to actively seek obscure rules threads posted before I joined the forum. Silly me. Furthermore, no mod ever states in that thread (or any thread provided so far) that substituting asterisks for curse words results in a ban. I'm a fairly good forum user, and if I read a rule I won't break it. But the rule I broke was never posted. How am I supposed to obey rules that aren't ever stated?

A point gets lost in this: Rogue was banned for a long term track record of disruptive behaviour, he had it coming. In the end if you agree with this, or disagree with this it is of little import. AO is a privately owned, privately funded, and privately moderated forum. You have no rights. The ownership and administration has the full right to refuse you service (ban you) for any reason not related to race, religion, or sex. Or, for that matter, no reason at all.

Lohman, you're a category of debater that particularly bugs me. You don't reply to the important points people make; rather, you reply to the points that you think you have the best argument against. This isn't about Rogue's ban, this isn't about Big Evil's ban. This isn't about my ban. This isn't about any one particular user getting banned. This is about a moderator who enforces rules that were never posted and applies bans seemingly at random.

I'm not saying this is strictly Beemer's fault - maybe we need more mods who can revamp the rules thread so we actually know what rules we're supposed to be following, and that larger mod staff could actually come up with a coordinated system where they warn and ban users according to an actual pattern rather than whims or moods. I'm not arguing against enforcement, I'm arguing against uneven enforcement. This is like watching a guy doing 80mph in a 60mph zone whip past a cop and then getting ticketed by that same cop for going 65mph. I know he's got a tough job to do, but I'm still irked that it was me who got the ticket.

For those of you who will tell me my opinion doesn't matter - I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that it was the users who made a forum great. I thought what we had here was a great community that worked together to better itself, based on a common interest in quality paintball information and equipment. I though I contributed to that, I thought I added something to the community, and I thought my input was appreciated. What I'm hearing now is that I've been mistaken these last couple years, that everything can be thrown to the wind based on the whims of a single moderator, and that this forum is no longer receptive to the ideas and opinions of its members.

Hopefully some of the mods here will eventually realize that this sort of heavy-handed and uneven approach isn't any way to keep a userbase happy and flourishing. Based on moderator responses to this thread, though, I'm not holding my breath.

[Lohman446]

Lohman, you're a category of debater that particularly bugs me. You don't reply to the important points people make; rather, you reply to the points that you think you have the best argument against. This isn't about Rogue's ban, this isn't about Big Evil's ban. This isn't about my ban. This isn't about any one particular user getting banned. This is about a moderator who enforces rules that were never posted and applies bans seemingly at random.

Who was banned, and not just warned, for a rule that they were not aware of (or should have been aware of)? Not you not aware of, but they were not aware of.

[Lohman446]

This is like watching a guy doing 80mph in a 60mph zone whip past a cop and then getting ticketed by that same cop for going 65mph. I know he's got a tough job to do, but I'm still irked that it was me who got the ticket.

And yet in no way changes the fact you were guilty of disobeying the rule and your punishment is merited.

[ThePixelGuru]

Who was banned, and not just warned, for a rule that they were not aware of (or should have been aware of)? Not you not aware of, but they were not aware of.

Uh... what? I don't even have a clue what you're trying to say here, but it appears to be about the specific bans of specific users, which I just said wasn't the point. Kind of reenforces my other point about you responding to the wrong portions of an argument, doesn't it?

And yet in no way changes the fact you were guilty of disobeying the rule and your punishment is merited.

That's true, but the cop has a responsibility to stop the guy going 80mph, too, and any rational individual would argue that the more severe and prior offender should be the higher priority. Still, I suppose a more apt analogy would be a 60mph zone with no signs marking it as such. Guy goes through at 80mph, cop doesn't seem to have a problem with it, you go through at 65mph and get a ticket. Surely you see my point - but you're probably willfully misinterpreting it because it's easier to argue against that way. Regardless, banning some users for offenses and completely letting others off the hook is arbitrary and unfair. I'm not complaining that I got banned, I'm saying it's lousy policy to ban some users for certain offenses and turn a blind eye when they are perpetrated by others.

My argument here is based on two simple facts.

1. Users are banned for violations of rules not contained within the actual forum rules.
2. Users are banned for offenses while identical or worse offenders are let off the hook.

These are truths, and if you think you can disprove either I'd like to hear it. Where we differ appears to be in that I believe forums and their moderators owe some degree of respect to their members, just as members owe some degree of respect to their moderators and the forum to which they belong. Willfull disregard of their own rules and code of conduct is a breach of that respect and tears at the fabric which holds communities like this together. As much as you'd like to believe that we're doing this because we want to tear AO down, we're doing this because we feel we've invested enough time and effort into this community that preserving it is worth standing up to a moderator on a power trip.

[Lohman446]

You can't use just broad sweeping generalizations without some specific example to actually back it up though.

[DevilMan]

Very good TPG!!!!

Well stated and well put.

And Lohman. You can't argue. You can't debate. You come off on me telling me that I go into the "grasshopper" part telling me that I'm not addressing the issues???

Who started the name calling??? Come on. You've gotta be kidding me. The rule states that substituting characters or spaces for letters to bypass the cuss filter is not allowed.... Let me show you some examples....

P A I N T ball..... d00d00he@d.... p00pf0rbr@!n$

You get the picture??/ None of those words are blanked out. And if you can't figure out how to make em then that's on you. I'm not gonna push the button to prove my point as I can do it with validity without breaking a rule. THE RULES DO NOT STATE that saying ***, ****, ********* **** * * ** * * * is a violation. Go read em.

And for someone who likes to argue that the members here have no merit and don't mean anything and can be tossed out like a piece of trash... I would like to see you make a post saying that that's what you believe in in the general forum for ALL to see and see how it gets taken. See how well received your ideas are. And see just where it gets you.

Why don't you give that a whirl and get back to me. After all this is AO.... This is about opinions and ideas is it not?? Why don't you post up a poll and see what the rest of the folks here think???

DM

[ThePixelGuru]

You can't use just broad sweeping generalizations without some specific example to actually back it up though.

I assume you're referring to:

1. Users are banned for violations of rules not contained within the actual forum rules.
2. Users are banned for offenses while identical or worse offenders are let off the hook.

...which forces me to wonder if you've actually been reading the thread. As for 1, I got banned for posting four asterisks in a row - not tripping the cuss filter (which isn't a rule anyway), not cussing, and not circumventing the cuss filter. For 2, starring out the fecal portion of the phrase "bullpoop" is, in my opinion, less of an offense than the guy (his nick escapes me, but I don't want to get anyone else banned here anyway) whose custom location contained the three letter slur for gay males with only the "a" blocked with a "*". There are tons of other examples in this thread alone, and if you open your eyes you can see it happening all over the forum. I'm fairly astounded that you can claim this doesn't happen, especially given that it happened just earlier in this thread when one user was banned for posting a few asterisks while another was warned for circumventing the cuss filter. Or in the tons of threads before this in which Beemer banned the people who started them and locked or deleted the threads, compared to just moving them to the Friendly Corner (like this thread). Or how linking to pblegion.com is apparently a ban-able offense (seems to be the only forum link this is true for, hmm?). This hardly seems like evenly applied policy to me.

Now, would you argue that a) moderators not following their own rules is a good thing, or b) that they have been following their own rules? I can see why you dance around the issue - if you let me nail down your beliefs about it we could quickly determine just how ridiculous a stance you're taking on this.

[bofh]

For those of you who will tell me my opinion doesn't matter - I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that it was the users who made a forum great. I thought what we had here was a great community that worked together to better itself, based on a common interest in quality paintball information and equipment. I though I contributed to that, I thought I added something to the community, and I thought my input was appreciated. What I'm hearing now is that I've been mistaken these last couple years, that everything can be thrown to the wind based on the whims of a single moderator, and that this forum is no longer receptive to the ideas and opinions of its members.

You know what's neat about that paragraph? You start off thinking you opinion matters, and by the end, you realize otherwise. Oh and AO hasn't changed, it's been that way from at least 1/20/05.

Users do make a forum, as they provide the content, and without content a forum is nothing.
Moderators are occupied making the board inviting for other users to provide content.
Don't make the mistake that this means your opinion on they should run the board matters. It makes you a disruptive force.

You are the nail standing out, and not the squeaky wheel.

[Lohman446]

I assume you're referring to:
...which forces me to wonder if you've actually been reading the thread. As for 1, I got banned for posting four asterisks in a row - not tripping the cuss filter (which isn't a rule anyway), not cussing, and not circumventing the cuss filter. For 2, starring out the fecal portion of the phrase "bullpoop" .

Which is a violation of the rules and has been very clearly stated in the past (albeit not in the rules section). And since one argument here is "it applies just as much on the web as in real life" I'll take it and run with it. You are responsible to know the rules / laws of life and follow them, even if they are not all neatly set out in one easy form. The only portions of your complaint that holds any sense of validity is that they are not all in the same place and that they are not always enforced fairly. Since there is a judgement call in any enforcement not everyone will always agree they are enforced fairly, so I'm going to go with questioning if that is that great of a valid point. Its a ban, it didn't cause you harm, and now you know. Get over it.

[maxama10]

Lohman 08!

[DevilMan]

Which is a violation of the rules and has been very clearly stated in the past (albeit not in the rules section).

[Lohman446]

The rule is no cussing. Getting the *s means you were cussing and gives you a warning to edit it out. Using *'s instead is using characters to circumvent activation of the filter. Most of the time, unless it is inflamattory or a repeat offender, people have gotten warnings. Posting *'s to bait the moderators is distrubtive behavior. I guess it is in the rules after all now that I consider it.

However, for those who wanted the clarification, and had bothered to use the search function, this was very very clearly stated in the past.

[bornl33t]

Seriously, get out of the house and do something, you're all making a four page mountain out of a molehill.

[DevilMan]

I'm not in the house.... I'm outside in the middle of the lake on a jetski.... thank goodness for those new AirCards!!!!

And if you don't have anything constructive to say regarding this matter then why do you insist on posting to it??? See there we go again, proving points. The ones that folks that don't care and only want to say, "making a mountain out of a molehill" crap. And has nothing better to say on the subject, yet they come here anyway. I am discussing points related to this thread. You are not. IF you wish to discuss the Mountain vs. Molehill dilemna why don't you start a new thread of that nature???

So by your definition getting the ****** means I was cussing???? WRONG. As I've stated before and as you have obviously failed to read/grasp my explanation. Which I find totally whacked out as you yourself just posted *'s in your post. So therefore that means you were cussing. Right???

And WRONG again on using ***** in place of a word does not mean you were using special characters or spacing to circumvent the filter. Why don't you stop and read a bit before just flyin off the handle. You obviously have a very weak grasp on the obvious.

See my examples on what counts as a rule violation. Spacing or special characters. As what I put. Now if you would like I can PM you some examples with the proper cuss words spelled out.... however it will be known here that it was requested.

You are just too bullheaded to step off and look at the logic.

DM

[DevilMan]

You know what's neat about that paragraph? You start off thinking you opinion matters, and by the end, you realize otherwise. Oh and AO hasn't changed, it's been that way from at least 1/20/05.

Users do make a forum, as they provide the content, and without content a forum is nothing.
Moderators are occupied making the board inviting for other users to provide content.
Don't make the mistake that this means your opinion on they should run the board matters. It makes you a disruptive force.

You are the nail standing out, and not the squeaky wheel.

If his opinion don't matter..... Then what makes you think yours does??? So why did you just waste your time typing it up?

It has nothing to do with his opinion on how he thinks the board should be ran. ZERO to do with it. It has EVERYTHING to do with his thoughts on the way the RULES stated on this BOARD are enforced. Noone here has said squat about how they think it should be different, or how we should be able to VOTE on the rules. BUT we have stated emphatically and repeatedly that the rules are stated as such and are to be followed as such and to be enforced as such.

Don't try arguing a point that's not being argued with someone who is arguing other topics.

DM