Carry Concealed on College Campuses?

[Ruler_Mark]

laws against concealed carry limit law abiding citizens.

[grEnAlEins]

laws against concealed carry limit law abiding citizens.

Laws against anything work the same way. The only people that are restricted are those who are inclined to follow the law regardless.

This is not to say that law should not exist, but it should regulate behavior instead of objects (for the most part anyways).

[SCpoloRicker]

Just keep a (secured & safe) shotgun in your residence. If you really need it...

[grEnAlEins]

Just keep a (secured & safe) shotgun in your residence. If you really need it...

And what constitutes secured, safe, or need?

[Ruler_Mark]

Honestly there are alot more people packing than you think in areas where they shouldnt. Will a law stop them? never.

Stats show in areas where concealed carry is legal shootings are stopped faster and possible prevent more deaths.

[Hilltop Customs]

Honestly there are alot more people packing than you think in areas where they shouldnt. Will a law stop them? never.

Stats show in areas where concealed carry is legal shootings are stopped faster and possible prevent more deaths.

Where do you get those types of stats?

[Ruler_Mark]

dont remeber where, had a huge debate in a class once over this. should be had in google somewhere

here are some:

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pdcrm/pdcrm20.htm

In the 31 states that now have "concealed right to carry" laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.

Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.

In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent

[grEnAlEins]

Where do you get those types of stats?

I do not have them handy, but I can verify that CC Laws have appeared to curb crime in the vast majority of jurisdictions. The most notable declines in violent crimes have been in areas where the highest percentages of women carry. There is no causal relationship that has been statistically suggested or verified with respect to the women thing, it is an interesting correlation though. Over winter break (or after my term papers get written, whichever comes first) I might dig through my mass of crud that I've read this semester and find some of the journal published studies relating to this topic if I remember to do so. I seem to recall that Florida has been a shining example of this effect on crime, but I do not remember any of the stats or time period associated with that off the top, for some reason Florida sticks out in my mind. The statistics do seem to overwhelming support the idea that in areas with greater legal carry do tend see lower crime than comparable areas that prohibit carry. Also, I was reading an article about the criminality of those with carry permits as opposed to those without, and those with carry permits were less likely to offend (in all categories of crime) than those without. I do not remember the source, but I should be able to dig it up.

The main crime category that I have not seen evidence or reduction in is auto theft excluding carjacking. I have not been made aware of any decline in auto thefts excluding carjacking in any jurisdiction that can be directly attributed to permissive CCW laws with any degree of statistical significance.

That fact that CCW does appear work as a method of crime control is reflected by passage of CCW laws in all but 2 states. 48 States allow for some CCW (or 55 if you count Obama's secret states. Sorry, had to because that 57 states thing was just too funny ) and most have a shall issue law. This is because 1) it seems to reduce crime, 2) self preservation is a basic right, and 3) because of federal court rulings (including SCOTUS rulings), the police/law enforcement personnel have no duty to protect individuals or respond to calls for service (look it up: Warren v. DC, Riss v. New York, DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department, Freeman v. Ferguson (this one is especially interesting), Castle Rock v. Gonzales, Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, Bowers v. DeVito, Ford v. Town of Grafton (another good one to read because when contacted by the victim, a police officer told her that it was not the PD's job to enforce a restraining order and that she should buy a gun), Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, and many others. You should be able to find several. It is a scary fact, huh?) This means that you are responsibly to ensure your own safety. Most data shows that it seems to work.

[Hilltop Customs]

grEnAlEins I'm guessing your studying law?

Ruler_Mark, thanks.

I see those types of statistics as much better reasoning for allowing the carrying of concealed weapons on campuses(or anywhere).....using school shootings and the insignificant statistics involved with them to justify concealed weapons is IMO. I just think there is less logical reasoning behind it, and more of an attempt to play on emotions.

I mean, placing yourself in a criminals mindset, it is obviously dangerous and less tempting to commit crimes directly on a victim if there is a chance they are carrying and capable of defending themselves. On the otherhand, a "psycho" who is only interested in killing people is much less likely to care or even think about the possibility of their victims carrying so using that as justification just doesnt sit with me well.


statistically significant data

[grEnAlEins]

grEnAlEins I'm guessing your studying law?

Not directly at this point. I am in grad school doing a CJ/Criminology/Justice Policy track. Law school is next unless I can land a desirable job. I have taken several classes in law over the course of undergraduate study, and studying case law and policy implications is central o my studies now in addition to being a hobby. This proves that I am a huge dork

[Southpaw]

Well I am glad the banter has been civil!

Honestly am surprised by the survey so far

Yes; armed students and faculty could respond to a critical situation immediately.
64%
No; allowing guns on campuses could confuse authorities in a real crisis.
36%

as of 2:43 am

[ultralight]

population density of idiots tends to be higher on campus. Idiots interacting with other idiots can lead to fights....fights when people happen to be carrying weapons have a higher chance of leading to serious injury/death.

I'd be less worried about on campus related incidents, and more worried about bar/ surrounding area related. If people can carry a weapon on campus they will be more likely to carry it with them everywhere....including downtown or even into bars where dumbass fights are more likely to break out.

oh, I never got my permit yet simply because I know that 90% of the time I'm out I'll end up on campus....so its basically pointless for now.

i think you may have missed Maxama's point.

these "idiots" most likely would not be qualified to get a concealed pistol license. And if they are qualified, and take the class, and get the license, then they are much less likely to be "idiots".

It is illegal to carry in a bar. anyone carrying in there doesn't care about laws and would carry anywhere anyway.
It is also illegal to carry while drunk. there are already laws covering all of the offenses that could possibly be committed with a firearm. Do we really need laws that work preemptively? "You can't have fire in your home because you MIGHT commit arson.".

There are already people carrying "downtown" and in the areas surrounding the school. It's called "concealed" for a reason; you'll never know about it.

If you would have gotten your license, you would know all of this. They teach you everything and answer all of your questions.

Its not really that they are idiots, its that they are arrogant and dont know how to back down from an incident. It has more to do with responsibility, not intelligence.

Before getting the license (in Michigan) you must take an 8 hour course detailing the minutia of just how screwed you'll be if you do something stupid with your carry gun. Concealed carry is quite a burden and a liability. Anyone carrying knows that, they have a lawyer come in and tell you all about it before they even think of letting you carry. every single person carrying is taught that you avoid conflict at any cost and you only use your weapon if you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm.

Even if allowing guns on campuses magically stopped all "crazy school shooters", how many additional deaths will be created from accidents and fight related shootings? weigh the two against each other. I really think death rate would increase if more guns were allowed on campus, because in reality campuses are extremely safe right now....no how much the media trys to convince us otherwise.

Concealed carry does two very important things.
First, it educates people about firearms safety and responsability. This is evidenced by the incredibly low crime rate among those who carry. This will take care of your proposed 'wild west' scenario where drunken fights and shootouts are the norm. There is actually no precedent for this assumption. It is the same argument that was used by the Anti-gun croud when concealed carry was first proposed. They said that people could not be trusted, and that there would be all sorts of random killings due to those carrying. IT NEVER HAPPENED.
Second, it deters the criminal element from thinking about crime in the area of those carrying. If all college campuses were no longer "gun free zones" the criminals could then be forced to reconsider their choces. Have you ever noticed that whevnever a shoter wants a "high body count" they go and shoot up a school? Why do you think that is? Could it be that they know they will not encounter resistance until they stop shooting?

think about it. Did the VT shooter care that VT's campus was a "gun free zone"? Declaring an area "gun free" only means that "there are no people legally carrying defensive firearms here". No sheep dogs, just sheep. The perfect place for a wolf to get dinner.

EDIT: responded to this post before reading the rest of the thread. Current poll on MSNBC is:
65 for
35 against.

[AirAssault]

Reason I CCW? If some piece of garbage ever put me or my family in danger, I want the ability to do something about it and not HOPE the popo get there in time. The fact I have my CCW shows I have the understanding of what it means and what responsibility I take upon myself when I brandish my weapon or worse case have to pull the trigger. People don't take the time to get their CCW because they think it will be cool.... and if they do, I bet you they don't carry, but flash it at the bar with the guys. In all these mass shootings, just think what the difference one armed student/civi could of made... Now how about five, ten, twenty? I bet there would be a lot less dead good guys and one dead or very messed up bad guy. One armed person took out the whack job down in that church in Co. Springs... Nuff said.

[Lohman446]

I have to question if the portion of the population that you are concerned with (the idiots) will take the time or effort to get a CCW. At least in MI it requires a class including range time (while I don't think the training alone is adequate it at lest deters those who are simply getting it to be cool).

As others have stated carrying CCW is a mindset. I am not dependent on the government or anyone else for my safety. My safety, and that of my family, is my responsibility and I have every intent to assure it to the best of my ability at any time. Having and carrying legally is simply part of the preperation.

[punkncat]

I dont think the average college student has a responsible enough demeanor to carry a concealed handgun. I'd love the ability to carry and protect myself, but IMO the additional risk stemming from the dumbasses I see everyday being able to carry would far outweigh the benefit of my self protection. So I would say NO, even though I would LIKE the ability to carry for myself and for anyone else that could responsibly carry a concealed weapon.

Well, I think you have hit the nail on the head concerning ANY person carrying ANYWHERE. Not just in this situation.

I can see inherent dangers in allowing the average teenage college student carry around a firearm. Considering the fact that almost any adult aged person without certain criminal offenses can get a carry permit there are a lot of irrresponsible people carrying weapons, not just on campus.

Unless you are a criminal who cannot carry a weapon, who and how decides what individual IS responsible enough to carry a weapon?

If the same adult could carry a weapon elsewhere in "public" then why not on campus? We have certainly seen a need for it at times.