Just Watched the Democratic Presidential Debate

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag
I'm surprised this hasn't been closed yet. I'll make my prediction. Bush will lose in 2004. Heck he didn't win the popular vote in 2000. I don't care what the polls say.

No, he didn't. But, I'm predicting not only will he win but he's going to dominate the Democratic challenger (especially if it's someone like Dean). Bush a very popular President, just like Reagan was. He resonates well with most Americans. Now, just like Reagan, the people that don't like him REALLY don't like him, but they are in the minority.

I remember when I found out Bush had won. Even though I didn't vote for him I wasn't too displeased. I was sort of sick of Clinton and the Democrats anyway and figured it wouldn't be much different. Now I have seen it was tremendously different. Our foriegn diplomacy is a joke. We have tax cuts but our spending is higher than ever (thanks in part to our horrible foriegn diplomacy). I won't even go into who is getting the tax cuts.

Well, you're entitled to your opinions. Spending is out of control, and it has been under everyone since Carter. I would say that while you might consider our foreign diplomacy to be lacking our foreign policy does the one thing that is very important, looks out for the interests of Americans (by and large, there is always room for improvement). As far as the tax cuts, yes, we all know that rich people get more cash back then poorer people. But those of us on the right are waiting for the people on the left to concede that poorer people get a higher percentage and already barely pay taxes in the first place.

He's going to lose. The polls lie. The average american (not all those stupid political analysts) are going to throw him out of office....

The average American really likes Bush though, and I doubt they'll cast him out. Just look at the way his fundraising works, almost all his money comes from "regular folk" and in very small chunks. Just that is a good indication of the popularity of this President.

[aaron_mag]

Albinonewt- We'll see which of us is right

Some food for thought-

My brother just got back from the Netherlands. Did you know there was wide support for the war in Iraq there? Did you know that shop owners were putting up anti French and anti German signs in the shops despite the fact that this is the source of their main tourism?

Now the other side of the coin. Nearly everyone he met hates George Bush. They actually were asking if Hillary Clinton would be running and were hoping she would win! (not something I personally favor). Why would someone who supported the war dislike Bush? Because he totally flaunts the international community. His administration has basically said we don't care what the rest of you think. Our diplomacy has been blatant and heavy handed versus the subtle nature of good diplomacy. This vote election will be sending the message to the international community that we either feel we are PART of this world or "continue" to feel that we are ABOVE it. My vote will be for the former message.

EDIT:

Oh and your mention of his fundraising credentials to show his popularity is laughable. If anyone can claim to be gaining support through a populist movement of small contributors it would be Dean not GW.

[Albinonewt]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the Netherlands was electing our next President.


And that's a good point about Dean. His internet fundraising has been impressive amoung the party faithful.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
. I won't even go into who is getting the tax cuts.

*Professor Deadeye Sits in the corner smiling quietly *

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

So he is purposely withholding evidence from the world court.

I sure hope he is doing that so he can be put up for trial and be kicked out of the presidency for using this information to get reelected.

What, the FBI is withholding information about some of their investigations? The CIA is withholding the names of their spies? Holy cow! Lets arrest those dangerous LIARS!

Maybe...just maybe...assuming he has evidence (which liberals repeatedly say there is none) he is keeping some of it seceret for a reason...

Maybe the evidence says a certain amount is missing, or unguarded, or anything else, and they don't want to announce it to the world for use by terrorists. Maybe they have some scientists under arrest who know everything, and want to be able to use the information provided to stop future attacks, selling, whatever.

At least pretend to see through your hate CB.

Originally Posted by aaron_mag
I won't even go into who is getting the tax cuts.

The taxpayers? ::ducks::

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the Netherlands was electing our next President.

Netherlands is not electing our next President but this shows the essential rift between the U.S. and her long standing allies. It also shows the hostility that has been generated among the international community towards the U.S. which is not good for the U.S. I suppose some will say that foriegn nations have always hated the U.S. but those are from paranoid and very close minded people who appear to be Bush's strongest backers (low blow. I couldn't resist ).

The feeling that we have "always" been hated because we have been top dog for so long is very unfounded. I remember as an exchange student in 1992 being amazed at the number of french youths who were wearing clothes featuring the US flag. Yes that was the FRENCH!!! Furthermore the amount of solidarity from nations towards the U.S. after 9/11 was extremely strong. Instead of turning that good will into something our brilliant administration chose to be arrogant and high handed. These are the reasons that Bush must be jettisoned. He is a liability in foriegn relations.

More food for thought. We have less troops in Afghanistan than the Dutch! This first shows how nice it is to have international support in a mission (less commitment needed from the U.S.) but also shows how our focus changed to Iraq. We don't know whether Bin Laden is really waltzing around the mountains of Afghanistan but our inability to catch him may have something to do with our lack of focus in Afghanistan. There was no reason compelling reason (unless you want to count the WMD that have not been found) not to keep Afghanistan as our primary mission until we had found that bastard!!!

[Albinonewt]

Yeah yeah, the good old "if we do two things at once we lose our focus" line. I've heard it a million time, at that was just during the debate.

Yeah, the world is angry at us. So what? Wait, let me repeat this again. So what? Our President felt it was in our national interest to fix the problem in Iraq. I simply do not care what France, Belgium, the Netherlands, or anyone else thinks is best for our nation. It's ours and not theirs and therefore what my President thinks is a prudent course of action means more to me then what the Netherlands does.

The reason the world is angry is because they're used to us caring more about their interests then our own, and they can't stand that we don't do that anymore. Does France consult us before they make any kind of move? The Netherlands? Russia? Anyone? No. They do what they feel is in their national interests and so do we. When our opinions differ they get all huffy and upset. It's too bad that they don't get it, but they don't have to. Just like we might not always get why our allies do things.

And I'm glad the Dutch have a lot of troops in Afghanistan, but the fact is the war is over and our fighting men and women aren't as needed. The internation community (say what you will about them and I can say a lot) actually has a lot of peace keeping units that are more useful then our combat ready units for this kind of action. It's sort of an unwritten rule that we'll do the fighting and they'll do the policing.

And don't go counting the WMD out yet. I'm still betting there is a lot of evidence we don't know about yet.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Wait, let me repeat this again. So what?

So what? We are not the only people who live in the world. One of the great things about this country is that we had a tradition of coalition building EVEN WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE TO! Any country will look for international support when they NEED it. It takes a truly unique, conscientious, and great country to care about it when they don't need it. I'd like the U.S. to continue to be great.

The reason the world is angry is because they're used to us caring more about their interests then our own, and they can't stand that we don't do that anymore.

We actually agree. Note above comment.

Does France consult us before they make any kind of move? The Netherlands? Russia? Anyone? No. They do what they feel is in their national interests and so do we.

Yes they do! Anything that has to do with international matters on the scale of an invasion you bet that they look to the U.S. Not to mention that they want to do it under the auspices of NATO with our army leading the way.

When our opinions differ they get all huffy and upset. It's too bad that they don't get it, but they don't have to. Just like we might not always get why our allies do things.

Sounds like the U.S. not the international community. We are the ones that get "huffy and upset" when we can't bully other nations into complying.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag

So what? We are not the only people who live in the world. One of the great things about this country is that we had a tradition of coalition building EVEN WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE TO! Any country will look for international support when they NEED it. It takes a truly unique, conscientious, and great country to care about it when they don't need it. I'd like the U.S. to continue to be great.

But we did build a coalition. Not as big as we would have liked, but we did do it. Simply put, you can't get the entire world to agree all of the time. But you can get some of the world to agree all the time, and we did.


Yes they do! Anything that has to do with international matters on the scale of an invasion you bet that they look to the U.S. Not to mention that they want to do it under the auspices of NATO with our army leading the way.

No, they really don't. The French like to make big sweeping gestures to be sure (so we all know how important they are ), but they don't really ask approval before doing things. They're too good for that


Sounds like the U.S. not the international community. We are the ones that get "huffy and upset" when we can't bully other nations into complying.

No, we really didn't. We just continued with our plans with whatever allies we could muster (which was a fairly impressive list). The French and Germans kept complaining at every step (even sabotaging the Turkish agreement) and we just kept chugging forward. There was some sniping from our side (rumsefeld and those stupid freedom fries), but it was pretty tame.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
There was some sniping from our side (rumsefeld and those stupid freedom fries), but it was pretty tame.

We agree on something. That freedom fries thing was so stupid! Rumsfeldt also did some really stupid things. I know what you are referring to with the whole Turkish thing but that is not what sabotaged the Turkish agreement. Believe it or not it was the Turkish people and the budding democracy there that scrapped Turkey as a base. If the Turkish government and the military could have gotten away with it they would have taken that aid package in an instant. The polls showed, however, that the Turkish people did not want our troops there.

[Albinonewt]

France leverged Turkey to back down and not support our basing troops there. It was made clear that France would have a difficult time getting Turkey into the EU if they let us attack from their soil.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Because he totally flaunts the international community. His administration has basically said we don't care what the rest of you think. Our diplomacy has been blatant and heavy handed versus the subtle nature of good diplomacy. This vote election will be sending the message to the international community that we either feel we are PART of this world or "continue" to feel that we are ABOVE it. My vote will be for the former message.

[/B]

At the risk of getting this closed (and my apologies if I have overstepped the lines here) - who cares.

Most of our problems now are creating by us caring too much about the world and putting our noses in where they did not belong. Isolationism was better for this country than what we have now (ok, so current technology may make this impossible). Perhaps we should reiterate, who cares what the rest of the world thinks, build a big dome over ourselves, and let the rest of the world to themselves. (I know there are historical problems with this, but it served us reasonably well for 150 years)

[1stdeadeye]

Newt,
I am so glad I got to meet you at NJ AO III. I am even happier that you joined AO. It is so nice to have another voice of reason here to counter the rantings of Aaron Mag ( ) and Collegeboy!

Now Aaron,
G.W. has proved that he is extremely politically saavy! He is not Bush I. The guy has been underestimated his whole career and he has shoved it down their throats in return.

Give the guy some credit. He probably knows more then he is letting on.

CollegeBoy,
Bush is not subject to the World Court. He will not be tried and thrown out of office unless he gets caught "Not having sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky!"

CB, how have the Alabama rednecks not tar and feathered you yet? Come on admit it....Your a closet liberal!! You act like a conservative hillbilly and drive your pick-up around when in public, but when on the internet, the Jimmy Carter in you comes out!

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
, but when on the internet, the Jimmy Carter in you comes out!

Haha

That's a great line

And thanx for the kind words, it was great getting to meet you at NJAODIII too!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
France leverged Turkey to back down and not support our basing troops there. It was made clear that France would have a difficult time getting Turkey into the EU if they let us attack from their soil.

You give France too much power. Turkey has had close ties to the U.S. including in the first Gulf War. Do you think that Turkey would actually court France as a friend over the United States? Only an idiot would make that choice.

The fact is that 90 percent of the citizens of Turkey were opposed to allowing the U.S. a base in Turkey (according to Polls). The government was weighing every way they could get away with going with the U.S. There was, after all, considerable financial aid in the package we were offering them. Plus they wanted our support in making sure the Kurds didn't get too much power post Saddam. They just couldn't find a way to oppose the will of their people.