A Defense of Marriage/Gay Rights Amendment

[f3rr3+]

whats the big deal... really... why do people care...

[CaptaiN_JacK]

so a teacher today told me the REAL reason bush is doing this:

about 75% of republicans support a constitutional gay marriage ban

only 44% of democrats support a constitutional gay marriage ban.

in other words, by making the ban, he wil be solidifying his base for the next election, but the democrats will be split.

and religion and other stuff also play a smaller part

[shartley]

Originally posted by CaptaiN_JacK
so a teacher today told me the REAL reason bush is doing this:

about 75% of republicans support a constitutional gay marriage ban

only 44% of democrats support a constitutional gay marriage ban.

in other words, by making the ban, he wil be solidifying his base for the next election, but the democrats will be split.

and religion and other stuff also play a smaller part

[brandnewcadillac]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by spantol

Social changes spring from an underlying change in the social current. What's happening here, similar to what happened with women's suffrage and slavery, is that our society is being asked to decide whether the stigma associated with certain activities is justified. Clearly, judging from poll results, society isn't going to accept gay marriage at the moment (or ever, if that's your position). If a polygamy movement were to (somehow) gain momentum and pose the same question, they would certainly meet with the same results, for the same reason--those activities aren't condoned by society. I see no reason why a society that condones gay marriage would necessarily become more likely to support polygamy, and that's what this argument reduces to. The slope simply isn't that slippery.


Here is my problem! How were women given the vote? How was slavery abolished?

BY CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!
No court stepped in and tried to promote social policy by making laws themselves. Until society is ready for Gay marriages, guess what? Gays are not "entitled" to that right.

DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!!!

BTW, I have many black friends who are outraged at the Gay community for trying to compare the "Gay Struggle" to the Civil Rights movement! Food for thought!

dont try to re-write history. brown v. board of education was one of the most influential court cases in history,

gay marriage is a civil rights issue and will remain one until religious zealots realize that they cant legislate christianity.

gays are entitled to the right to marry just as straight people are. certain areas of the south were by no means ready to accept integration in the 50s and 60s. they had to bring in the national guard so blacks could go to school with whites!

history has proven that the standard for civil rights issues should not be whatever the majority wants. civil rights are one of the few areas where there are moral absolutes. i honestly dont care that the majority of americans dont want gays marrying. the majority of americans favored slavery 200 years ago.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by brandnewcadillac


dont try to re-write history. brown v. board of education was one of the most influential court cases in history,

I'm sorry, but did you see the post I responded too? It addressed salvery and womens suffrage. Both of which were changed by constitutional ammendments! So why bring Brown vs. Board of Ed into a response that was not targeted at seperate but equal?

gay marriage is a civil rights issue and will remain one until religious zealots realize that they cant legislate christianity.

Says you. I don't see gays being hosed in the streets by overzealous police. I don't see them being lynched by the clan. I don't see them being beaten by police or bitten by their dogs, so don't you dare compare their plight to people who were truly oppressed.

gays are entitled to the right to marry just as straight people are. certain areas of the south were by no means ready to accept integration in the 50s and 60s. they had to bring in the national guard so blacks could go to school with whites!

No they are not entitled to anything! You earn your rights by working through the law to secure them.

history has proven that the standard for civil rights issues should not be whatever the majority wants. civil rights are one of the few areas where there are moral absolutes. i honestly dont care that the majority of americans dont want gays marrying. the majority of americans favored slavery 200 years ago.

Moral absolutes, eh? Whose morals? Yours? Mine? Gary Bauers? Rosie O'Donnells?

You have no right to force me to accept your morals! You killed your own argument with that phrase. Civil Rights were cemented by the Civil Rights Act that LBJ signed into law. Court cases helped, but remember all you interpretist wackos out there that the knife cuts both ways! Maybe a conservative judge somewhere will rule that the 2nd ammendment is literal and all americans can carry firearms. Then we will hear you screaming and complaining about how wrong interpretation is!!!!

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by CaptaiN_JacK
so a teacher today told me the REAL reason bush is doing this:

about 75% of republicans support a constitutional gay marriage ban

only 44% of democrats support a constitutional gay marriage ban.

in other words, by making the ban, he wil be solidifying his base for the next election, but the democrats will be split.

and religion and other stuff also play a smaller part

So, basically, Bush is representing the will of the people?

[CaptaiN_JacK]

even though nobody wants to make illegal immigrants legalized, hes still going ahead with that...in other words, hes trying to pick the issue that most republicans go for, and which splits up the democrats.

what im trying to say is that hes trying to get votes this upcoming election. hes trying to get his polls back up, and in turn, win a new term for president. hes also trying to get the democrats split up so as to make it harder for them to back 100% behind the democrat presidential runner.

so basically, bush is an elitist ignorant ***** whos tearing the country apart with his stupid foreign policy.

his polls are lagging, and he needs some momentum, so why not pull a kkk and segregate a minority because they are inferior and stupid and shouldnt be able to have the same rights as "normal" people

[brandnewcadillac]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by brandnewcadillac


dont try to re-write history. brown v. board of education was one of the most influential court cases in history,

I'm sorry, but did you see the post I responded too? It addressed salvery and womens suffrage. Both of which were changed by constitutional ammendments! So why bring Brown vs. Board of Ed into a response that was not targeted at seperate but equal?

gay marriage is a civil rights issue and will remain one until religious zealots realize that they cant legislate christianity.

Says you. I don't see gays being hosed in the streets by overzealous police. I don't see them being lynched by the clan. I don't see them being beaten by police or bitten by their dogs, so don't you dare compare their plight to people who were truly oppressed.

gays are entitled to the right to marry just as straight people are. certain areas of the south were by no means ready to accept integration in the 50s and 60s. they had to bring in the national guard so blacks could go to school with whites!

No they are not entitled to anything! You earn your rights by working through the law to secure them.

history has proven that the standard for civil rights issues should not be whatever the majority wants. civil rights are one of the few areas where there are moral absolutes. i honestly dont care that the majority of americans dont want gays marrying. the majority of americans favored slavery 200 years ago.

Moral absolutes, eh? Whose morals? Yours? Mine? Gary Bauers? Rosie O'Donnells?

You have no right to force me to accept your morals! You killed your own argument with that phrase. Civil Rights were cemented by the Civil Rights Act that LBJ signed into law. Court cases helped, but remember all you interpretist wackos out there that the knife cuts both ways! Maybe a conservative judge somewhere will rule that the 2nd ammendment is literal and all americans can carry firearms. Then we will hear you screaming and complaining about how wrong interpretation is!!!!

yes, there are moral absolutes. it is wrong to commit murder. it is wrong to rape. it is wrong for some tubby redneck minister to try an place his hate speech into the constitution.

civil right: right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including the right to legal and social and economic equality.

legal equality-gays can not enter into marriage (legal contract)
economic equality-gay couples are denied monetary benefits granted to straight ones
social equality-gays cant marry, straight couples can. this policy reflects that gay couples are lesser citizens than straight ones.

[-Carnifex-]

He's elitest for following the will of the people?

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by joey d


did you not read my post above? I cited 2 cases (well, not "cases", but instances) above where there was no stimuli involved (or maybe I didn't explain that there was no stimuli. either way, there was no stimuli.) there was no predisposal to a homosexual environment whatsoever. it was something that just came natural to them. there is no "gay gene" as hamster huey already stated.

Perhaps I wasent clear... My original statement was in fact that IF in fact being gay was PURELY genetic Natural selection would have selected them out long ago. Because they have a lesser degree of diferental reproduction... As you can see natural selection seems to have no so profound of an effect on selecting OUT homosexuality... Thus the reson is NOT DIRECTLY linked to a gene.

Now in my reply... I coincided with some current theory...

Howver the CURRENT theory is that a set of genes in the human body that effects brain chemistry. This is perhaps the genes that control sexual diffentiation. We all have both sets of genes but usually the sex we are determines which ones get transcribed from DNA into RNA then expressed.

I never said the stimuli was homosexual... There is some stimuli that causes an expression of a certain set of genes perhaps these sex genes that produce a certain set of biological chemicals that cause things to go awry. This can be as simple as forgetting to brush your teeth when you were 4... Obviously thats ridiculous... but we dont know what triggers it yet... Admittedly I mistakenly called this the "gay gene"

I hope im clear this time...

This thread is going 300 MPH I can barely keep up with it!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by CaptaiN_JacK
even though nobody wants to make illegal immigrants legalized, hes still going ahead with that...in other words, hes trying to pick the issue that most republicans go for, and which splits up the democrats.

Actually lots of people don't want this. Me being one. I don't feel we should reward illegal immigrents for breaking the law to enter our country. Further, this is an attempt to lure more Hispanice Voters to his party.

what im trying to say is that hes trying to get votes this upcoming election. hes trying to get his polls back up, and in turn, win a new term for president. hes also trying to get the democrats split up so as to make it harder for them to back 100% behind the democrat presidential runner.
And that makes him different from every other politician how?

so basically, bush is an elitist ignorant ***** whos tearing the country apart with his stupid foreign policy.
You don't know much about Kerry do you? He is extremely arrogant and elitest. Further, he is a hypocrite. He is preaching against Benedict Arnold Corps, yet taking over $400k from them in fund raising. Also, he recieved more money/gifts/trips from lobbyists then any other member of the Senate in the last 15 years. Think on that!

his polls are lagging, and he needs some momentum, so why not pull a kkk and segregate a minority because they are inferior and stupid and shouldnt be able to have the same rights as "normal" people



That remark is ignorant!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by brandnewcadillac


yes, there are moral absolutes. it is wrong to commit murder. it is wrong to rape. it is wrong for some tubby redneck minister to try an place his hate speech into the constitution.

So murder being wrong is similar to gay marriage how?

civil right: right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including the right to legal and social and economic equality.

legal equality-gays can not enter into marriage (legal contract)
economic equality-gay couples are denied monetary benefits granted to straight ones
social equality-gays cant marry, straight couples can. this policy reflects that gay couples are lesser citizens than straight ones.

Except where in the constitution are these rights enumerated? Remember that all rights not spelled out are reserved to the states!

You are trying to create rights where they do not exist. Show me where these rights exist other then in your interpretation of "equal rights". By the way, the Equal Rights Ammendment (ERA) never passed!

[brandnewcadillac]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by brandnewcadillac


yes, there are moral absolutes. it is wrong to commit murder. it is wrong to rape. it is wrong for some tubby redneck minister to try an place his hate speech into the constitution.

So murder being wrong is similar to gay marriage how?

civil right: right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including the right to legal and social and economic equality.

legal equality-gays can not enter into marriage (legal contract)
economic equality-gay couples are denied monetary benefits granted to straight ones
social equality-gays cant marry, straight couples can. this policy reflects that gay couples are lesser citizens than straight ones.

Except where in the constitution are these rights enumerated? Remember that all rights not spelled out are reserved to the states!

You are trying to create rights where they do not exist. Show me where these rights exist other then in your interpretation of "equal rights". By the way, the Equal Rights Ammendment (ERA) never passed!

yes, i agree with you. there is a lack of rights in america. thanks for making my point for me.

you hinted that there are no moral absolutes, which there are. i dont care if rosie odonells morals tell her that murder is right. it isnt no matter what a person's individual opinion is

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by brandnewcadillac


yes, i agree with you. there is a lack of rights in america. thanks for making my point for me.

Then change the law by electing like minded legislators. Until then sorry you are SOL!

[71 LS6]

next, as someone stated before, the polygamy argument is an argumental fallacy known as post hoc...you cannot say that one will lead to the other. for one, polygamy isn't legal! homosexuality IS legal! there's a HUGE difference between extending equal rights to two people engaging in a perfectly legal act, and giving rights to two criminals because of their crime.

Fundamental error with this argument: There is a difference between polygamy (Multiple partners in mariage) and just plain multiple sexual partners. One is legal, while the other is not.

Likewise, there is a difference between homosexuality (same-sex sexual activity) and same-sex marriages. Again, one is legal while one is not (depending where you are)

If both points under homosexuality are made legal, what then prevents both points under polygamy from becoming legal?


Also, I would like to hear a valid argument from a same-sex marriage supporter of why polygamy should not be legal while gay marriage should. Bear in mind that this argument should in no way argue against the pro same-sex marriage arguments you make.

Legalizing same-sex marriages is simply taking a step toward changing the institution of marriage so that a minority of the population can have its "rights" protected. It is logical to argue that this first step will put society in a position to make the second step, which would then be easier than making the first step had been. This continues, and is called the slippery slope.