PTP Fascination

[boo]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

[Nobody]

And is that a bad thing?

My contention is that, AGD as a company is a shell of what it formally was. Though many people are keeping the the brand alive and vibrant. PTP has not changed, it has not done anything more than what it had 16 years ago. I could say since 2009, but many people STILL haven't been compensated for the 2k9 fiasco(i couldn't tell you, as i was not around for that).

No i could care less either way. I liked the look of the old anno'd guns, but to rest your laurels on 1 thing is not a strong company model. The end all is that i will support agd. That should be everyone's goal that uses AGD products.

[Walker]

The end all is that i will support agd. That should be everyone's goal that uses AGD products.

Naturally... Or we may end up in the same boat as those who own equipment from GetReal Paintball, no longer able to get spares.

As for ProTeam, if you don't like their equipment, or just the company in general, don't buy their products. That is your right as a consumer. Not all of us feel the same way, not all of us have had the same experience with them, but I respect your right to your own preference.

As for AutoMags, I don't care what body you use. Once you put an AGD valve in, it becomes an Automag. Whether the body is an AGD, PTP, XMT, EVO, or anyone elses, or it came off a wood lathe or is an old rifle stock, it is still an Automag.... To me... :)

Enjoy your prejudices, for in the end; they are yours to keep.


Walker

[boo]

Naturally... Or we may end up in the same boat as those who own equipment from GetReal Paintball, no longer able to get spares.

As for ProTeam, if you don't like their equipment, or just the company in general, don't buy their products. That is your right as a consumer. Not all of us feel the same way, not all of us have had the same experience with them, but I respect your right to your own preference.

As for AutoMags, I don't care what body you use. Once you put an AGD valve in, it becomes an Automag. Whether the body is an AGD, PTP, XMT, EVO, or anyone elses, or it came off a wood lathe or is an old rifle stock, it is still an Automag.... To me... :)

Enjoy your prejudices, for in the end; they are yours to keep.


Walker

Exactly, stop trying to argue that in 2016 AGD is better then PTP. It's a totally illogical argument, or that PTP needs to step it up. The sun set on both companies, one left some sunburn, but their days are both over.

Both AGD and PTP offer great customer service in 2016 if you want to order some parts and that's more then most old school companies can offer. And that's great, because unless you've been living under a rock PTP was not a one trick pony, they did great things for a lot of different markers.

If you want to support automags don't rally around AGD, rally around all the great people here that are keeping automags alive by offering new bodies, frames, etc.

I've got one XMT body and I really hope to buy more from all the guys here doing great things.

I guess I should buy an XMT evo and put a micro eMAG lower on it, and that would be keeping PTP innovative like AGD

[cockerpunk]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

[JKR]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

Lets not count AGD out yet. Seems that Sandman's arrival at AGD has breathed some new life into the company. At least you get that impression reading FB. Time will tell but I am hopeful to see some new products out of AGD in the future.

[GoatBoy]

Obligatory quote to start things off:

first unibody Automag

[JKR]

Obligatory quote to start things off:



Why is a unibody mag such a revolutionary achievement?

Because it hadn't been done before...duh!

Lets not discuss paintball and its marketing of non-essential "upgrades" and industry firsts. If you think PTP was the only manufacturer to do this then you are crazier than I think you are.

No one technically benefits from different colors of anno or milling either, yet look at the offerings of current markers.

Try to look past your hate of PTP and understand people have preferences and likes that don't match yours. Trying to prove those likes are inferior with smug bravado proves nothing.

[boo]

Lets not count AGD out yet. Seems that Sandman's arrival at AGD has breathed some new life into the company. At least you get that impression reading FB. Time will tell but I am hopeful to see some new products out of AGD in the future.

He's getting more parts run, which is good. I'm glad to see ule frames becoming available again since they are an excellent frame.

But here's the thing. They have an excellent frame and an excellent valve. There's no reason to come out with an electro, it's overly complex, adds additional weight and the top level of paintball is semi auto only. Even with the expired SP patent. I don't know if it would be worth running new ULE bodies since they still have them in stock and you can buy a ULE mag brand new.

I'll continue to bet if AGD does a new mag they will have Luke, XMT, or another member here run some cool bodies or license a design and sell them new.

If AGD made a true comeback they'd need a clean sheet design. It's just not worth it. The AGD design is at its max potential with the xvalve and unibody, something that came about 15 years ago through AGD and PTP.

You guys need to give PTP credit for who they were. They were a very good aftermarket company who never took that next step like PE, Dye, or Empire (NPS at the time).

All people are doing to make an "AGD comeback" is (what I suspect) is coming out with uniquely milled unibodies with xvalves. Hmmm, so the claim is that for AGD to be relevant again they need to be PTP circa 2000. And that's paintball marketing, to make what's old new again.

I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I like AGD, PTP and the crazy devoted machinists and homebrew designers here.


Face it, name a new design that's not just a refinement of this...

[Nobody]

He's getting more parts run, which is good. I'm glad to see ule frames becoming available again since they are an excellent frame.

But here's the thing. They have an excellent frame and an excellent valve. There's no reason to come out with an electro, it's overly complex, adds additional weight and the top level of paintball is semi auto only. Even with the expired SP patent. I don't know if it would be worth running new ULE bodies since they still have them in stock and you can buy a ULE mag brand new.

With that thinking, there is no reason to have fuel injection, when a carburetor can still work.

It's not a question of making it more complex, its a matter of making it easier to pull the trigger. That was the exact reason why the Angel was developed(true story, Jim Rice of WDP wanted a gun that you can put in an amateur that could shoot as fast as a pro). Its also has a bigger mark up to make money. Sure, it has more parts and has more to make it work, but the price at which you can sell it means that you could earn more money. Which is the reason why people make things to sell.

I'll continue to bet if AGD does a new mag they will have Luke, XMT, or another member here run some cool bodies or license a design and sell them new.

Nope, that won't happen. AGD will want to keep it in house. And more importantly, Luke is just getting into the body making business, but XMT(unless i am mistaken) works with someone on the designs.

If AGD made a true comeback they'd need a clean sheet design. It's just not worth it. The AGD design is at its max potential with the xvalve and unibody, something that came about 15 years ago through AGD and PTP.

Wow, talk about myopic view on life. To me, other than shrinking the size,but not the footprint( you still need the valve to work with older designs), or making something new, that was drawn up years ago, but never released. AGD has done a lot that people never seen before, like the Zframe, 6pack, viable full face mask, HPA, reactive triggers, L10 bolt; so i can not see what else could be done. But i also have not been thinking about it, either.

You guys need to give PTP credit for who they were. They were a very good aftermarket company who never took that next step like PE, Dye, or Empire (NPS at the time).

A good aftermarket company puts out products that people want. PTP met a point where there was nothing there and never did anything more. You need to see what the players want and then figure out a solution to what they want. PE, Dye and Empire, did a few things that were ok, but never came back to make anything more. ANS did more and most of their products were crap. So no, i won't give PTP any more credit cause they don't deserve it. Its called not resting on your laurels. Hell, the 2K9 failed was 7 years ago... Come on, wake up

All people are doing to make an "AGD comeback" is (what I suspect) is coming out with uniquely milled unibodies with xvalves. Hmmm, so the claim is that for AGD to be relevant again they need to be PTP circa 2000. And that's paintball marketing, to make what's old new again.

What is old seems to sell, in a new package. Look at the Sniper and Ressurection; cleaned up, updated, simplified, improved and they sell. Half the fight is telling people that AGD is still alive and you can buy them new still. Look at the viral marketing of what the L10 did. People where showing what the 1 biggest probem was with mags and it was magically fixed. Marketing is one of the biggest holes which a company can dump money in and not see a return. So a new body or anything new, as long as it looks good and functions how its supposed to. No complaints here...

I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I like AGD, PTP and the crazy devoted machinists and homebrew designers here.

A lot of us do, hence creation of a forum where we can all show what we mak3, how we build it and what we need.

[JKR]

I suggested to Sandman to do a new variant of the Automag that focuses on light weight, simplicity, and a lower cost to get them into the hands of the new generation of players.

My suggestion was a mix of parts they currently have...X-Valve (or Classic in aluminum if lower cost is possible), ULE body, L10 bolt, stock carbon fiber frame, rubber grips, and stock rail. Sold without barrel and without ASA unless requested.

It wouldn't be a super cheap 'gun but if they could aim for around $350-$400 retail, it might sell pretty well. I know my son is about ready for his first marker and this would be my choice for him.

[going_home]

Drinking The Kool Aid.........

Face it, name a new design that's not just a refinement of this...

[Walker]

Lets go back to the original questions:

Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ? Because we like them.

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ? Because we like them.

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO. Everyone has their own opinion. I consider them AutoMags, and like them.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ? Only you know the reason for your bias, you will have to answer this question yourself. Some others may have the same bias, others may not.

As for me, I like the ProTeam/BenchMark/Armson products. The AutoMag is easily my favorite paintball gun. The configuration I like best is based on Luke's low pressure equipment.


Walker

[Nobody]

I suggested to Sandman to do a new variant of the Automag that focuses on light weight, simplicity, and a lower cost to get them into the hands of the new generation of players.

Ummm, unless i missed something, the mag is pretty much the simpliest gun out there. 2 screws takes the hole damn gun apart. Have a small leak, put 3 drops of oil in it to seal it. Leak still there, its either 2 orings(powertube or on/off orings). Costs... That is the kicker. The ion & the enmy killed everything on prices. Weight, is another thing you can't really do much with, unless you skeletonize the gun, which is not cost effective. Lets face it, the $100 market is inundated with walmart specials, Tippmanns and anything else that is cheap. If you aim higher for the quality & non-rental market, it will better, IMO.

My suggestion was a mix of parts they currently have...X-Valve (or Classic in aluminum if lower cost is possible), ULE body, L10 bolt, stock carbon fiber frame, rubber grips, and stock rail. Sold without barrel and without ASA unless requested.

Costs for a new classic valve will be higher than an Xvalve. Yes, you have the design, but how many are you going to make? 100, 200, 500, 1000? That is a lot of capital that AGD might not want to spend on something that isn't really needed. Think about the pump kits, Zframe, Yframe. All invested in, but they where all considered commercial flops.

The problem now is, most guns come ready to play with a barrel and ASA. No one wants to buy a gun anymore where you need multiple parts to complete it. Older, established players prefer than, but not entry level. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It wouldn't be a super cheap 'gun but if they could aim for around $350-$400 retail, it might sell pretty well. I know my son is about ready for his first marker and this would be my choice for him.

The price you are wishing. I doubt that will happen. A bare bones Mag off AGD's site is still $530. That is with an ASA & no barrel. Most people here will know that a classic will be about $75 give or take accessories. The real key to this is, what AGD has in stock and what they don't. Are there CF frames still? How many groovy grips(i.e. the rubber grips that fit on them) are still around? The same with the classic rails? I would love to see AGD come into the market where the Ressurection is sitting, but AGD will have a mountain to climb to get it at that price range with all of those features(venting ASA, lever-lock feedneck, barrel kit). I am a realist. I am happy AGD is going to do something new...

[JKR]

Costs for a new classic valve will be higher than an Xvalve. Yes, you have the design, but how many are you going to make? 100, 200, 500, 1000?



The price you are wishing. I doubt that will happen. A bare bones Mag off AGD's site is still $530. That is with an ASA & no barrel. Most people here will know that a classic will be about $75 give or take accessories. The real key to this is, what AGD has in stock and what they don't. Are there CF frames still? How many groovy grips(i.e. the rubber grips that fit on them) are still around? The same with the classic rails?

They wouldn't have to worry about making any number to stock as this variant is just an assembly of parts they probably already stock. They might have to have some new CF frames molded and order those and perhaps some rubber grips but little else would be required. If not a classic rail, then the rail used for the RT ULE Pro or the Tac One.

Heck, why not make a carbon fiber rail for all their 'guns? With screw inserts used with the aluminum versions and a metal insert for the z shaped milled out part for valve to lock into place, their carbon fiber material for the grip frames has proven insanely strong and could easily be used for the rail without issue.

I think the price I am estimating could be feasible given the RT ULE Pro without barrel and ASA is $481 currently. Deduct the price difference between the Intelliframe and the CF frame and deduct the front ASA and bike grip and I believe they could come in under $400 and still maintain a margin they can live with.