ULE Trigger, Can You Shoot It Right?

[Mutilus]

How does the intelliframe work? What are the particulars about it, I really want to start running with my newly built Mag, Level 10, X Valve ULE Body Freak System and lots of other goodies all it needs now is a soft trigger (like Tom's) although I understand they can't make it that way because of Tourney play so don't tell me that again. I just need a good fast trigger frame and I am a happy boy, is the intelliframe an option I should investigate?

[WarBUCKs]

Tom asked if we could learn how to shoot the trigger and I say "Yes, we can learn."

I know for a fact, I can learn how to shoot a trigger. I am still young and in college!

[MaxPowers]

Instead of another potential P.R. nightmare, how about a nice 'slap on' electro frame? Do something like the Hyperframe, only do it right.

[bryceeden]

I think that the new trigger will greatly increase the mags popularity, and what noone that I have read has said is that mags chuff with the I-frame if you walk the trigger fast, and it only takes alittle practice to get over it. Most people do not walk the triggers on current mags, but it is possible and they do chuff so it isn't a new problem it is just that more people will be walking the trigger so it will be seen more. I think that the trigger should be beta tested by 10-15 people, and then their oppinions on chuffing should decide what is done. For now I say realese it, because it isn't a new problem and with a little practice it can be overcome.


Bryce Eden

[Cryer]

Originally posted by MaxPowers
Instead of another potential P.R. nightmare, how about a nice 'slap on' electro frame? Do something like the Hyperframe, only do it right.

This was the original form of the ULE trigger, but AO opted for a mechanical trigger with a comparable pull. Better reliability. Now that there are so many problems (ie Chuffing, On-Off orings), that might have been the better course of action...

[Eric Cartman]

In the 10 years that I've had my classic mag, I've hardly ever chopped a ball. I used good paint and never found it to be an issue.
I play a lot of rec ball but have never played in a tournament and have absolutely no desire to. Because of this, tournament rules don't matter to me. Many people will disagree with me, but I find that taking the game too seriously takes the fun out of it. It seems that if anyone loses their cool at the field where I play, it's usually a team player who seems to have lost sight of the fact that it's just a game and there are no trophies or prizes on the line.
I'd really love to have the lighter trigger and I can't afford an Emag. I've already purchased an Xvalve, an Intelliframe and a Max Flo reg this year (that's with Canadian pesos too, so I got owned by the taxes and the exchange rate!).
I think you should sell the new trigger with a serious disclaimer attached. Only sell it through the E store and this way you can ensure that everyone is made aware of the disclaimer. Feedback will turn up on the forum very shortly after it's made available and this will help others decide if this mod is for them or not.
As long as it's not a big deal to reverse the modification and go back to your original trigger set up, and the cost is not too high, people can just chalk it up as a learning experience if they find that this mod doesn't work for them.
Please don't put this on the back burner or make this unavailable to all of us! I'm sure a lot of us would love to try this thing and would be smart enough not to hold it against AGD if it didn't work out. We've all been very clearly warned that there may be issues with this mod.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

trigger

The fact Tom Kaye brought up that this new trigger easily leads to "chuffs" and didn't even refer to the chuff that I as well as bryceeden have encountered with I-frames when you're trying to shoot fast (which is short-stroking, I know that) means it could possibly be even easier to chuff with this trigger than a non-retro Mag trigger. If so, that's a key issue. If it's the same risk of chuffing, thats not too bad but having to get used to a trigger is bad because if you lose your timing once your gun is down or shooting inaccurately. That would KILL the rep of the Mag as a reliable gun. If it just risks chuffing but not more than before that is ok, and I still support my previous idea of investigating to see if some of the lightness of the trigger can be sacrificed in exchange for a shorter pull that's way more difficult to chuff.

And most if not all of us have NOT seen the internals of the ULE trigger so we're guessing here. I think when Tom finally explains how the internals work in detail we'll be able to decide if it sounds good or if options need to be discussed, such as scrapping the project, going back to initial design, a cheap LED E-frame (which would be nice), or changing it as I suggested and still having some benefit. BUT regardless of the many people who are happy to deal with chuffing, or at least say it here, if this item is standard or even common it's going to shape the rep of the Mag and the rep of chopping and chuffing, as chopping rumors still exist and chuffing would definitely aggravate peopple. A second rumor of unreliability will hurt AGD greatly. I say go affordable electronic.

[Clockwork_Orange]

It's unfortunate the ule trigger project isn't going too well. I think the project should still go on, it just needs a lot of time to be worked on and tested. Seriously people don't be selfish and try to rush a potential project that can evolve mech guns forever. AGD has not dissapointed me yet and I'm not expecting to be dissapointed by any of AGD's products! Even if it takes the project a year of testing I still think it would be worth it.

I'm a faithful mag owner and have been using my mag for about 4 years now. I have never had major problems chopping paint, because I learned how to shoot the trigger right(and believe me both my trigger fingers are sick!!!!). The way I see it, if you had problems chopping paint with a mag it's because you can't shoot the trigger right...that's the bottom line!

It's all fine and dandy to learn how to shoot a trigger, but in the middle of a game, under pressure, do you really think you're going to have the patience or even think about shooting the trigger right??? What would be the purpose of making an electronic frame if you have emags, xmags, hyperframes, boo yah's, etc... The development of a mechanical trigger that can out shoot most electros is history in the making!

Give Tom Kaye, his staff/team the time they need to continue their ongoing project and stop rushing and harassing them! I hear about complaints on the regular from other players that swear my mag is on full auto, and that's coming from players with electronic markers!!! You have to be kidding me if you're not already satisfied with the performance of the retro valve/x-valve.

Upgrade your grey matter 'cause 1 day it may matter!!!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

idea

The idea of a ULE trigger is great, but there's reasons it hasn't been done yet and why previous on/off mods have become obselete so far. Sadly enough, it may be that it's impossible to have a Mag with it's functional design be able to have a lighter pull that isn't a longer pull as well (leverage can always work but requires more travel time for complete pull) and not cause serious conseuences and side effects. If so, have a basic LED electronic trigger kit (~$200) that can drop into current frames or modifying the ULE trigger idea so it incorporates electronic activation of the sear/on-off could be a great idea. And most of us aren't rushing him, only those saying to forget about issues and release it as it currently is with no further experimenting.

I can shoot the trigger fine, but that's my whole point that it only takes one mis-step and loss of rhythm to chuff which we've all done, and if this trigger is very sensitive to that it's almost definite that would result in a barrel oozing paint. Electronics eliminate that because they fully cycle. Notice almost every tourney marker is electronic now? It's because they eliminate this concern, and people are willing to risk the board going out or battery dying for this feature. A reliable electronic will always beat a mechanical marker as long as you're smart enough to check the batteries.

[Clockwork_Orange]

Nobody is rushing Tom physically; verbally...yes! AGD is a small business, so Tom has more interaction and relation with his customers than most paintball manufacturers. With a small business you have to deal with a lot of supply and demands, especially if your competing with larger companies. Tom is doing his best (he's doing an excellent job!) to keep his customers happy as well as getting customers and prolonging the Automag legacy.

QUINCYMASSGUY, I understand what you mean about the consistent performance of an led frame, but what I think Tom is trying to do is change the way mech guns are looked at(performance wise). Electronic markers and frames alike are a part of the norm now! It's a little too early to see mechanical markers die out like pumps, especially a non electro mag. Changes like that make younger paintballers look past mechs and go right after an electro (Like the little kid you would see on the field with a $1,000.00 Angel). The way I see it, Mechs are like standard cars; you get a better feel of the performance! Electros are like automatic cars; You just sit back and let it perform on its own! You dig...




Upgrade your grey matter 'cause 1 day it may matter!!!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

counterpoint

Clockwork, before I respond let me note that I actually partly agree with you and you're making good points, I'm only responding to make my points clearer and not trying to prove you wrong.

AGD is small, making a breakthrough and introducing a product to the market as quickly as possible is the way to make as much an impact as possible, if Tom had the funds or got a loan to invest and get the ULE frame, Level 10, and XValve out fully and waaaaay earlier you'd see them everywhere and AGD would have made more of an impact and held more of the market. Quality is good, but not if you can't deliver it to a full extent. They need to grow then which is the idea of selling more and having more customers. The big companies are big because they are successful.

That's fine if he's trying to change mechs, but I think the analogy is kind of off. I see it being better thinking regular steering versus power steering. Power steering makes it shorter and lighter but requires power, exactly as an E-trigger does. If you went to a car dealership and they say "it doesn't have power steering but it gives that classic feel" what would you think? Do you know any new car without power steering? They evolved when power steering became reliable AND affordable almost all the time, so manual became obselete, which manual triggers should if E-triggers can be the same. Hence, the LED which is more affordable than an LCD which is really excess features some people don't want to buy.

And if you were holding a $900 Angel Speed and a $900 upgraded ULE Mag with the new superlight trigger and everything else AGD is making minus an E-frame and said "take whichever you want to play with today" I assure you I will have grabbed the Angel Speed out of your hand before you even finished the sentence. Why else do you think the XMag became available?

[Clockwork_Orange]

Marketing wise, you're definately right about AGD's progress and other businesses being successful, but It was the hiatus that they took that held them back, so now it's going to take time for them to get back up in the higher ranks financial within the paintball industry (then monopolize the paintball industry and take over the world...hahahahaha!)

I know you are trying not to prove me wrong, and I know you are trying to make your point clearer and believe me I understand what you mean (this has just turned into a friendly debate). As for the $900 Angel speed vs. The $900 upgraded ULE mag...It's a no-contest (in the consumer world)! That's Why Emag's and Xmags were created; to bring the mags competition to a minimum. Between a ULE hooked up to the T ULE trigger and all vs. a $2,000 Cocker, which would you choose?

As for the car analogy, You mentioned power steering vs. regular steering. I see what you mean, but any car whether it's from the dealership or not, old or new can always be modified for power steering with ease, but how many high performance cars do you know of that aren't standard and provide that classic feel? Atleast 90% of them are standard. A mech doesn't have to be a classic if it is evolving through technolgy; don't you think?

[Clockwork_Orange]

The LED frame is a good idea, but when the boo yah and hyperframe came out for mags not too many people went out of their way to purchase them, so they became pretty much useless. Do you think the risk of creating a new frame is still worth the cost at AGD's expense? Most people prefered having the Mag with a mechanical trigger rather than buying one of the electric frames. Don't get me wrong I love electros, but it's the concept behind an ehanced mechanical trigger that's gonna keep it around for years to come and make them more appealing to the public eye. Autocockers are mech guns too, but look at the cost of one of the higher end Autocockers... There prices are horendis, because of all the work that's put into one of those markers and of course, because they're high in demand.


I'm late for class! Later...:)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

hyperframe and booyah

The key issues with the Hyperframe and Booyah was that the setup and using them with a Mag sear was causing bolt chipping, sear damage, and all that when they cost WAY too much money, and kind of looked cheesy too (I don't like how they look, my opinion). It voided warranties and you paid $350 to do that, most people held off. An affordable LED under warranty with AGD using the technology of the new ULE trigger to make it feasible and affordable could be worth it. Especially if the current ULE trigger idea has problems which is does right now.

And I disagree with the mechanicals being around forever, it's because boards fry from water, paint, impact, whatever, and for people without $3400 (the cost of a pair of Dark Angels) they got to invest in a cheaper primary and backup gun and can't afford to buy a new board if one happens to go. And manual vs. automatic transmission would be more of a comparison to one-shot-one-pull and full auto, and Pball players and tournament runners are sticking to that manual feel.

Either way, great discussion but no matter what people are saying now, if shooting the new trigger proves problematic then people are going to be moving back away from Mags other than the XMag and switching to Angels and Intimidators, two of the most commonly seen guns now, and AGD will have lost the momentum they got. They need a light, short trigger. If they can pull off the mechanic one, cool, but if the idea used in the on/off can be used to make an E-trigger that's reliable and cheap (LED) AGD should do that and produce the ULE trigger in real small numbers for the limited few who would rather use it instead of an E-trigger.

An idea for the E-trigger. Again, PURELY hypothetical, hoping my ideas help: can a new ULE rail be used to contain the internals for a ULE E-trigger so a new gripframe wouldn't be needed? Battery (9v) stored in grip? REALLY short trigger pull (make an Angel user be amazed)? Better looking trigger than the Intelliframe trigger (more fancy)? That would be pretty cool. Oh and since I'm also in a tangent, how about a 15 degree frame (reverse Y) with the E-trigger to find a happy medium between the angel and the 45 degree standard? Won't break patents, would it?

I'm not demanding anything here, so no flaming me, just throwing ideas out hoping one catches the interest of all. Hope it helps.

[Mutilus]

I have been an angel user for 5 years or so and I really enjoyed Tom's Frame, I didn't notice the reactivity problem he is talking about but of course I only ran 200 rounds through the gun. There must be some way to bleed the air through some type of valving to lower the reactivity but still keep the crisp feel of the trigger as it stands now. I would have to play with it but I bet I will be able to figure it out. Let the torment begin but I was on teh design team for the Nova's and the Darkstars and the Lunacy which is now called the Assault 80 and I have been an airsmith for about 10 years now so I am sure I could figure it out. Anyway the thing that draws me to it is the fact then when companies like WDP and Bob Long put electronic boards in the grip frames they forget an essential step of coating the boards so unless you duct tape the seals around where the board is housed sooner of later you are going to experience water shortage in the board, and with Bushmasters and other Solenoid driven systems dirt and paint shells are your enemy in that they clog teh system, so a mechanical is more reliable. And in reference to the power steering vs. standard steering, the power steering is still mechanical not electronic it works off of the principles of fluid dynamics. Finally, the only way I can see a electro working well is if sealed in the grip better but then you run the gamble of overheating. Maybe the best route is an hydrolic trigger which applies pressure to a liquid filled chamber and compresses the sear to the outlet vales to actuate the trigger. Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I also think I rambled and probably make no sense at all.