AGD really let me down at PSP (long)

[Miscue]

/me has a proposed solution for refs.

A little metal sleeve that says "Classic" valve on it... that slips over the RT.

:)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
I dont know why some of you are so fiercly opposing lamby, almost blindly. You seem as if you are doing it just for the loyalty of AGD, with a few facts.

Well I didn't. I clearly said it was not his fault and nor was it AGD's. I think we all know where the fault lies in this one. I say we pay that ref a visit! Just kidding....

[Evil Bob]

Basicly, you got caught in a series of really bad events that added up to a catastrophe:

1) Your lack of knowledge in how the trigger worked lead you down the wrong path to address the problem presented to you.
2) The ref at the chrono is sadly behind the times (by a good 2 years minimum) and needs to be brought up to speed on how to chrono the modern mags.
3) You're upset and venting and blaming everyone but yourself for the events that befell you.


Starting with #1...

lamby, quick question for you...

What prevented you from screwing the trigger rods in so that they wouldn't make contact with the trigger when set to E-mod, thereby completely eliminating trigger bounce?

The trigger rods are adjustable by design for a reason, you can screw the trigger rod into the clevis so far that it won't even touch the trigger even in hybrid mode or you can unscrew it so that it makes direct contact with the trigger is at rest and the safety is on. You can even adjust the trigger so it fires when the safety is engaged.

Sounds like a user induced problem when the trigger rods were replaced. Your lack of knowledge on how to properly tune the trigger lead you erroneously to reducing your input pressure to cure the problem, which lead to lvl 10 bolt stick problems, which lead to poor in game performance.


Moving on to #2....

The chrono judge issue....

This chrono method was designed with the classic RT valve in mind, and it had some merit 5 years ago, as the classic RT valve would add an additional 5-10 FPS when you held and quickly released the trigger as is described in the chrono method on AGDE's web site. Mine would hit 7-8 higher reliably, as long my old school was chronoed at 290 for a field limit of 300 fps, I was fine.

The original lvl 7 mag valve was rock solid over the chronos, usually with a variance of only +/- 2 fps on a well tuned mag. The classic RT valve has a smaller air chamber then the lvl 7 valve or today's ReTro and X-valves, which resulted in variances in velocity at high rates of fire.

The problem with the old classic RT valve was once it went reactive and you started bouncing, there was no way to limit how fast it cycled until centerflag and booya came out with electronic frames that fit the classic RT. It was this lack of cycling speed limitation and the smaller air chamber that caused the RT vavle to actually shoot hotter at high cycling rates. Today's valves have a larger air chamber and the spiking on long strings isn't so much of a factor, especially with electronic frames introducing physical limitations on how fast the valve can cycle.

Therefore, it is no longer required to chrono an Emag/Xmag in mechanical mode, any ref who requires you to do this is uninformed and needs a little education on the modern AutoMag.

Granted, you may have been singled out, judges/refs, like everyone else, are prone to prefering one marker over another, some people deal with it better then others, some don't.


Moving on to #3....

You're finger pointing at AGD...

You're upset and venting your spleen, that's healthy to some extent, get it out of your system.

Unfortunately, your anger is misdirected, take a quick look in the mirror and you will see who is 90% at fault. You simply did not know the markers well enough to figure out the problem when faced with it. The remaining 10% of the blame falls upon the chrono ref for enforcing a rule that didn't actually exist in the rule books and requiring you to use an outdated chrono method on your Emag. AGD is not at fault here one bit, as they announced before hand that they would not be attending PSP, you should have known you would be on your own and prepared for it accordingly by bringing backup equipment. There are many here who have had zero problems playing in the rain. I have played through british tournies in high humidity and a steady hard downpour caked in mud up to my armpits without a single hickup. Others have played tournies under similar conditions without problems. The likely source of the fried board is that you did not properly prepare the marker for wet weather operating after replacing the trigger rod at the tourny in the wet conditions.

Sorry man, you can point fingers all you want, but the blame boils down directly to the course of actions you undertook at the tourny and your lack of knowledge of how the marker functions. Had you known how to properly setup the triggers and eliminated trigger bounce, the chrono judge would not have been an issue. If you had used 10 cents worth of silicon, you would not have fried your board.

-Evil Bob

[lamby]

evil bob:

I understand the marker I shoot (at least the concept of how everthing is inter-related ie.. bounce, manual, hybrid) Granted I do not know everything about the valve but the rest I understand fully.

After installing the trigger pins I did the mentioned adjustments to drop the bounce as much as possible. I made the trigger push the pin hard enough to push on the on/off but not so hard it will fire. I could not adjust the trigger pin in any further and still allow the ref to chrono like he wanted to. The only other option I had was to adjust the tank pressure down. Granted as I said after I played on the shoctech field the second time I adjusted my input pressue back to 625-650 ish and I did not have any other problems until the rain.
I am slightly insulted with your comment that I do not know how to setup my marker. I did not mention this because it sorta is irrelevant, but I have a TL63 trigger on my marker that screws with manual mode even more than the stock hump trigger. I am tough skinned though so oh well.

I think that the whole RT function of the valve is the problem. If it was not a problem do you think AGD would be designing the new on/off assy? I think not. I may have been the one that was screwed, but I still think I had NOTHING to do with it other than that. I was stuck in an impossible position because of the reative trigger cut and dry. I dont like... Make that HATE.. the RT effect of the valve. I wanted this eliminated, I did that by removing the pin.Then I got screwed because it was not in there. It was a loose loose situation.

I could have put the pin in adjusted it "normal" then boosted my input pressure to 800 and hoped he did not chrono it to look for bounce, but when I was playing with it at 650psi (in the players area not the field) it ws EASY to "sweetspot" so I think the ref could feel it too. I wanted to be safe and not sorry. That is why I made the decision I did for our emags. As far as our team goes I feel that there is alot of knowledge there, and we are not stupid. If there was a fix action it would have been fixed. The silicone thing yea that was my fault, but it would have took to long to setup at the field. That is why this was done as soon as there was info about rain (done in the hotel the night before)

Thank you for the post though, it makes alot of sense but in our case it is not accurate

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
I dont know why some of you are so fiercly opposing lamby, almost blindly. You seem as if you are doing it just for the loyalty of AGD, with a few facts. I dont totaly agree ewith lamby, sure, but Im not about to go do what you guys did. He is right on many levels

I whole heartedly agree!

[lamby]

ok all let me get something staright.

I am not here to *****.
I am not here to whine.

I am here to address a problem that I had.
My goal is not to step on peoples toes, argue, or try to defend myself to the "if AGD made it, it must be perfect" crowd.

My goal is to have AGD admit, then correct this problem period!

I thank most of you for posting, even if I dont agree with all of you

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
We looked into water proofing the boards but the stuff was carcinogenic and needed special handling proceedures. Easiest fix is to cut out a piece of heavy plastic bag and tuck in in there around the board. If the paint splashes in there it will not get to the components. Its not like you are putting the thing under water, you just need spray protection.

AGD

[Dayspring]

Good luck with that.

It's not a problem to everybody. It hasn't been until the NPPL and PSP came out ruling regarding the "bouncing" of triggers. And they are making a modification for people that are worried about it.

But having them admit that the reactive kick that their marker is based on is a flaw and are going to bend over backwards for you to fix it? Riiiight.

Originally posted by lamby
My goal is to have AGD admit, then correct this problem period!

[Frank (the spank)]

I think you were giving this "ref" too much credit. Some dork that wasn't good enough to play but still wants to be part of the show became a ref, he read somewhere that mags go full auto when you touch them and had no facts about anything,. so to act like a pro in front of his boyfriend or life partner he decided to act all offical and "pull" your E-Mag.

I'm wondering... did he stand up and do all kinds of baseball umpire moves when he declared your E-mag un-fit for play? Ya know.. like "you're outta there!!"

Couldn't you have gotten a 2nd opnion, maybe another ref that.. I dont know.. had a clue?

[Hexis]

Originally posted by lamby

I think that the whole RT function of the valve is the problem. If it was not a problem do you think AGD would be designing the new on/off assy? I think not.

I'm not quite sure how you call a design goal a flaw. Even the gun was named after the reactive trigger.

It has since become problematic, even though it's not what the anti-bounce rules are really designed to catch.

Like most things when something becomes a problem, AGD is doing something about it. They will address the issue and provide a fix that will work for most (if not all users). How can you complain about that?

[Troy]

First off I didn't read every post so don't blast me for repeating what someone else may have already said.

At world cup last year we had a judge that was very picky about trigger bounce on one of the fields. We had to turn down the output pressure almost to the point that the gun wouldn't fire. These Emags were all shot in manual mode over the chrono.

The next day we had the same field 2 times so we decided to remove the trigger rods from our guns. Problem solved. If the ref knows how to chrono a RT/Emag valve(which very few do) all you have to do is shoot a fast 3 round burst over the chrono to get the correct reading.

The Kids played this very same tournament and I haven't heard a word from them about this. I will say this though with two major series and big events almost every weekend don't expect AGD to be at every one. If one of the factory teams are there come and ask us for help. I'm not promising anything but this problem we could have solved.

Troy
AGD Lions

[Muzikman]

Actually, I think if I am reading this right, the ref didn't give him a hard time about the reactivness of his trigger, but that he wanted the trigger rod in so that the gun can be chonoed correctly. I don't see that as making the ref a bad person.

Yes there are problems with the design of the Emag, but in 1999 (or was it 2000) when this gun came out these were not flaws, but features. It's all in how the industry and governing bodies look at things. In 98, the shocker turbo was still allowed and this "turbo" was a feature. It's wasn't until 99 that NPPL took a close look at this "feature" and said that it could not be used. They are doing the same thing with trigger "bounce" now.

Again, these problems are not design flaws of the mag, but now that they rules have changed, the gun must be changed to fit within the rules, plain and simple. Will these problems be address, I would assume so, would having AGD there at PSP to fix this problem, no. Would having them there to fix the fried boards, sure as hell would.

As for waterproofing the emag, you could always do what we did in R/C cars when we wanted to run them in the rain, put the electronics in a balloon.:) As I said before, I have never had a problem with water and my emag, but I can see how it can be a problem.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Actually, I think if I am reading this right, the ref didn't give him a hard time about the reactivness of his trigger, but that he wanted the trigger rod in so that the gun can be chonoed correctly. I don't see that as making the ref a bad person.

Well yea it does! there is no such "RULE". Proper procedure recommended by the manufacturer that can be changed and still result in three shots firing over the chrono meets the "rules". Making something recomended for a specific marker MANDATORY for that marker IS NOT in the rules. I should be able to shoot any darn way I want to and if I pass the criteria then so be it.

The problem was this Ref knew just enough to know what was "recommended" he didn't know it was not a rule and that there are indeed other ways to crono a mag. A little knowledge is more dangerous than a LOT of knowledge...

[lamby]

Good news for me!!

Well, I powered up the emag (first time since chicago) and it is working fine. The board is not fried!! (the water that was in it did not do any perminant damage, just enough to temperarly disable it) This is very very good news for me.

[jaylock33]

Glad to hear your board's not fried. I haven't done any paintball tournies but I would imagine that like in the other sports I have done it's very important to know the rules for yourself if only to keep yourself from getting screwed over.