AGD really let me down at PSP (long)

[billmi]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
I think you were giving this "ref" too much credit. Some dork that wasn't good enough to play but still wants to be part of the show became a ref, he read somewhere that mags go full auto when you touch them and had no facts about anything,. so to act like a pro in front of his boyfriend or life partner he decided to act all offical and "pull" your E-Mag.

Seeing as how Frankie (chrono ref on the Shocktech field in Chicago) plays for Shocktech in both the NPPL and PSP, your statement that he isn't good enough to play is incorrect.

Since he was requiring that the guns be chronographed by the proceedure recommended by Airgun Designs, he clearly showed an understanding of the equipment and had facts about it.

You comment that he has a boyfriend or "life parnter." What, if anything about his decision to require that a paintgun be chronographed by AGD's recommended proceedure implys that he is homosexual? If he was homosexual would that affect his ability to be a referee? Does a referee need to engage in heterosexual relationships in order to chronograph a paintgun? Can a heterosexualy oriented male who has never engaged in sex (i.e. a straight virgin) still be hired as a referee? Whatabout Christians, Jews, asians or blacks? Are they acceptable, or does race and religion have as much an effect on the ability of a ref to do their job as you portray sexual orientation to have?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[rpm07]

here here you tell him Bill

[Spaceman613]

Bravo Mr. Mills!

and Thanks for spending all the time in that lil tent with the computer also. Every time I went to say hello, you were way to busy to disturb.

[Dayspring]

Bill Mills.

OWNAGE!

[billmi]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
Bravo Mr. Mills!

and Thanks for spending all the time in that lil tent with the computer also. Every time I went to say hello, you were way to busy to disturb.

Thank you very much. I've always got time to say hi. Maybe not much more than hi, but at least hi. Same for Dawn who works twice as hard as I do when we're at tournaments. I think most folks don't know the behind the scenes work we do at some of the events - from managing to fully running the scoreboard, scheduling the games, etc. to help make sure it goes smoothly for the players, so what thanks we get is greatly appreciated. It's the thanks and knowing that what we are doing makes a difference for people that make it worthwhile, and sometimes it's only the people who want to gripe about something that bother to speak up (a guy at the PSP Vegas tournament who lived in Vegas grouched at me for 5 minute about how we never update WARPIG because it still showed only the LA Open - turns out he wasn't going to our site, but following a link from someone else's site that linked to our coverage of the LA Open :-P .)

If you live in or around Chicago, come on out to the Bad Boyz Toyz WARPIG roast and sale in early September. It's a party in the Lansing BBT shop that goes all weekend long with a free roast pork and turkey dinner on Saturday night while they have a sale in the store. BBT brings in lots of follks from all over just to hang out and meet with people (me and Dawn, Keely Watson, players from Aftershock and Shocktech, etc.) Last couple of years Tom Kaye has come out and we had a mini AO-meet during the dinner. Last year even Manike made it (he had a convention in town that week for work.) Much fun to be had and plenty of time to socialize.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Spaceman613]

Ive bought stuff from ya at BBT for the past 2 years at the roast. The moldy Bananna cocker is mine. :)

Where else can I find someone who knows of Doc Nickel, Al Mollick, and all of the other fun topics that arnt as common on here.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
Where else can I find someone who knows of Doc Nickel, Al Mollick, and all of the other fun topics that arnt as common on here.

I was about a week short of entering into buisness with al mollick 3 years ago. Something about al's porno and paintball made me uneasy.

And bill.. where were you hiding. I was going to try and snag you and dawn to hit one of very good and cheap local eaterys... Ask around if anyone has heard of Johnnies beef, or Russells! (You've been more than courteous to me in the past ;-) I figured I'd return the favor by showing youteh good places to eat within a mile of the PSP... *snifffles* )

[hitech]

Bill, I must respectively disagree with your interpretation of the rules (and I do have a lot of respect for you). An emag without a trigger rod is legal unless there is a rule against modifying a marker from it's factory configuration then removing the trigger rod in and of itself it legal. Now, the procedure put forth by AGD is an attempt to simulate what can happen during rapid fire with the RT valve. I see nothing in the rules that require this procedure. As long as a modified marker is allowed, it has all the parts that are required by the rules then it is legal. It's up to the chrono judge to chrono it as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field. Want to chrono it as it would be used? Rapid fire and then fire over the chrono. As I understand it other markers increase the dwell during rapid fire (even if not a factory "feature", it could easily be changed by the user). Since the manufacturer(s) have not published procedures for simulating that situation, how do you chrono those markers? How do the tournament directors insure that other markers do not increase in velocity during rapid fire? Because the manufacturer has not stated they will? If one marker is going to be checked for increased velocity during rapid fire, they all must be checked.

As long as modifying a marker from its factory configuration is allowed, the removal of the trigger rod is legal. The suggested chrono procedure from AGD to simulate rapid fire cannot be required. Other methods of achieving the desired results must be used. If you are going to check makers for increased velocity during rapid fire, then all markers must be checked.

[Troy]

I didn't know it was Frankie, and here I thought he didn't even know how to oil his mag when he play with us

[Dayspring]

Simple solution in my eyes.

Take trigger rod out and chrono a bit lower than you normally would. (Not anywhere NEAR bleeding edge- 299fps)

When you do get into rapid fire, it will jump a bit in FPS. You'll be right on track there.

[Muzikman]

Hitech: As far as the piece of paper I got in my emag that said how to chrono it, (I knew befor then, but this is the first time I ever actually seen it in writing) it really didn't say it was the "Suggested" way of chronoing the gun, but that it is the correct way. The ref is obligated to chrono the gun correctly. If AGD would have never said "This is the correct way to chrono an RT" then no one would have been the wiser and this would be a non issue. But since they did, this should be the process falled by all fields and refs on how to safely chrono the gun.

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by billmi


No, he required something that is required.

The proceedure for chronographing an RT valve paintgun with chronographs in common use today requires holding the sear back with the trigger then releasing fast and firing. This proceedure was defined by Airgun Designs and is accepted by major tournament series (NPPL, PSP, IAO, Pan Am, etc.)

This method is required to get a reading of the maximum velocity at which the gun will fire.

Since Frankie "Bag-o-donuts" was the chrono judge on the Shocktech field, and he knows the proceedure, he was requiring it.

If you do not use this method, the gun will chronograph at a velocity that is lower than the velocity it achieves while rapid firing. The alternative is using a chronograph that can measure the velocity of individual shots in a string. Due to cost and complexity, these are not in common use at most paintball tournaments (NXL is now using one) which is the reason AGD developed the hold and pull proceedure for the RT equipped 'mags.

To remove the trigger rod makes this method of chronographing impossible, and leaves a situation where a gun that chronos under 300 fps will shoot at over 300 fps during actual game play.

The problem arose because the gun was modified by the user from its original factory design (a part was removed.)

I have discussed the trigger legalities of the E-Mag with Bill Cookston, the Ultimate Judge for the PSP, IAO (and previously NPPL) and he's had no problem with the E-Mag trigger, as long as it was not adjusted down to the point where it became a runaway trigger in E, manual, or hybrid mode. As it ships stock, unless fed abnormally high pressure, the E-Mag is a legal gun. The problems arise when players tweak the trigger trying to get it close to the edge of what is legal. Sometimes they go past that edge. It seems silly to me that when someone takes a working, tourney legal gun, and then tweaks it to where it either no longer works (in the case with a lot of 'cocker tweaking that gives the gun a reputation of needing lots of work) or is no longer tourney legal, that they then turn around and blame the manufacturer and or tournament referees for the situation.

As for Meph's statement that a comparison of AGD to other companies who did have factory techs at the event by someone who didn't pony up the cash to pay for AGD to make an appearance... Why would paying for AGD to make an appearance come into play? The other paintgun manufacturers who did have techs on site didn't require players to pay a couple thousand dollars extra for their techs to be there.

As to where AGD does send techs, that's their business, IMHO. It doesn't make sense to send factory techs to an event where very few of their customers are. I don't expect them to show up at my local field where there are only a handfull of 'mags. Why should they go through the expense of sending a crew to service a similar number of guns anywhere else? IMHO, the dynamics of their market are changing, and there are probably more effective ways (both in terms of increased sales for AGD, and better support for their customers) than sending techs to every paintball tournament in the US.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Well put!!

[billmi]

Hitech,

It's absolutely fine to disagree with me. That's the basis of debate and discussion.

You've hit on two very good points.

The first centers around "as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field."

The proceedure AGD has specified is designed to get the valve to function over the type of chronographs used, the same as it functions when rapid fired in the field. As used in the field, when rapid firing, the valve has a short recharge time. That is how the RT valve is to be chronographed, with a short recharge time, because that is how it is used in the field. That can either be done by taking the velocity of a single ball during a rapid fired string, or by the method outlined by AGD.

The problem, as I understand it, with the radar chronographs presently used, is that working on the doppler shift of the radar reflection, they don't work properly on measuring velocity during a string of shots. As I understand it, that is the whole reason for AGD's method, rather than simply suggesting that a rapid string of shots be fired at the chrono.

Knowing that the E-Mags *will* increase velocity on the field compared to a single shot in E mode, I believe it not only a rules issue, but a safety responsibility issue to not allow them on the field without chronoing them properly. The manufacturer has explained how the standard proceedure does not accurately reflect the velocity reached on the field, and that same manufacturer provides the simple method for accurately measuring that max velocity with the existing chrono equipment. To do otherwise is knowingly putting a hot gun on the field, and that is in my opinion irresponsible and unsafe.

Your other main point - is it fair to test the 'mag as accurately as possible when other paintguns *might* have a velocity ramp-up problem? If/when other paintguns can be proven to have a velocity ramp up problem a method for testing them at the tournament needs to be developed just as it was for the 'mags. The NXL has been testing guns used in NXL matches and not been finding others to have velicity ramp up problems. Similarly if any other method, be it pressing on a cocking rod that isn't protected by a beaver tail, twisting an unlocked reg, or holding down the trigger before firing will increase the velocity, it should be done by the chrono judge. In some cases there will be methods the judge won't know about that might have an effect. It's in his/her best interest to learn as many of these methods as possible, and he/she would be irresponsible not to employ them when testing.

The best answer for the long term is, in my opinion updating the testing equipment used on the fields. At present there are optical chronos that can do the job. They are unfortunately dependant on the environment and operator skill to the point that they aren't practical for a series like the PSP. They are also much more expensive, and much less durable than the Paintball Radar Chron chronographs. The NXL is currently using a high end (just under $1,000) chrono for testing guns that are challenged on shoot-up issues, and has also been simply spot checking guns between matches for velocity behavior over multi-shot strings.

While I don't know of any paintguns in which the legitimate factory installed software ramps up dwell time (which isn't to say they don't exist,) the possibility of custom software doing that as a cheat, something not detected in the current system, and not detectable by a visible inspection of the boards, means that the current system is going to have to change and adapt to keep up with technology.

In 1999 I suggested what I believe will ultimately be the solution (and something that at least one league is working towards right now) and that is on-gun chronograph technology, so that a compact, lightweight device clips onto the player's barrel and measures the velocity of every shot fired during the game. Hot shots set off an alarm - it won't matter what shoot up or down charactaristics are or what hidden modes there might be to cheat a pre or post game chrono. Shoot hot during the game, and bam you're penalized. That is, in my opinion, the only practical way to catch a hidden cheater mode in electronics that would do something like increase dwell time after a secret sequence is tapped out on the trigger.

In the short term, the tournament operators (and field operators for that matter) have to work with the tools available to them. Any way they can use those tools to measure the maximum velocity a paintgun will be fired on the field can and must be used. In the case of the e-mag, which has a known ramp-up issue, and a known way to measure it given the equipment available, allowing sometome to disassemble it to a way that makes that test impossible is not acceptable. In a similar vein, I've seen a ref refuse an Angel LCD with a blank display screen - the reasoning being that with out the display working there was no way to tell if the gun were unlocked to where the dwell time could be adjusted on the field. The rules don't require that a gun have a functional LCD screen - but that component to that particular paintgun was necessary to ensure that another part of the rules was being followed, just as the trigger rod is neccesary in an E-Mag to properly chronograph it with the equipment in common use today.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Simple solution in my eyes.

Take trigger rod out and chrono a bit lower than you normally would. (Not anywhere NEAR bleeding edge- 299fps)

When you do get into rapid fire, it will jump a bit in FPS. You'll be right on track there.

That's the crux of the problem.

The velocity will rise with rapid firing, but the chronos most common in use today won't properly measure it. To properly measure it with the chronos used, the trigger rod must be there to use the AGD approved method. A responsible chrono judge will know about the AGD approved method and in order to use that method he/she will need to test the gun with the trigger rod in place.

Since the rod is not quickly removable, it's not practical to test with the rod and then pop it out for use on the field.

IMHO, the simpler method, and the one I have followed is to not adjust the trigger to the point that it is a runaway trigger in hybrid mode. Then there aren't any trigger issues, and there's no problem chronoing it by the approved method. As shipped stock the E-Mag has no problems with the chrono or trigger bounce issues - it's after over-tuning the trigger that there are bounce problems. If someone then takes out the rod to avoid the bounce problem they then have the chrono problem.

The long term answer, is improved chrono technology.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[hitech]

Every marker should be checked.

In the case of the Angel without a working LCD. They we checking for lockout of features that are not allowed in a tournament. All other markers must also be checked for lockout of these features. Since every marker is checked for the same things, it's not the same thing to me.

RT valved markers are checked for "shoot up" because they are known to have it and as configured from the factory they can