Is this what Tom "really" thinks of AO?

[luke]

Originally posted by Miscue
You could have both, it just costs more to make.

But, if I had to choose one over the other... I'd side with performance. The kiddies want the shiny gun with sparkles.

You got it bro! This is the point of my post exactly! I get the feeling that Tom thinks AO is slipping into the world of hype. I disagree, some maybe, but not the majority.

[Joni]

Originally posted by epterry
Btw Tom how heavy would a valve be that could take 4500 psi?

Just look at any preset system...not all that heavy, eh =)

[luke]

Originally posted by shartley

LOL I agree! But like I stated, performance is ALREADY there. You don’t have to take a step backwards in performance to take a few steps forward with shine and sparkles.

You got it. Toms has told us it gets no better than the Rt, now all we need is something "purty".

BUT, recently he's dangling this carrot in our face saying he can build a better performing valve, but wont because of marketing hype on low pressure guns. That's not fair, he is assuming all of the market would ignore him. I disagree....

[Barfly]

well isn't the pressure that mags shoot low pressure? that is the way I understand it, it might not be like 60psi. It just takes a higher input pressure into the marker to help it recharge faster.

[gibby]

For me, my main focus in upgrading my mag was performance performance performance!!! With each new upgrade, my mag has evolved into something that out performed a lot of the "pretty" markers out there. The need to compete forced me to jump on the electro bandwagon. So...I got my first emag. Now that I've done everything I can to make my emag perform to the best of its ability...I look back and say...what more can I do to it to make it perform better? The answer...nothing for right now.

With that said, I do have pride in what I have and how it works. Others have seen how it works and they've been more than impressed. More like surprised that "it's a mag."

Well now, I sit back again and ask...what else? The next step is to make it look unique, to make it look nice as it's a reflection of the pride I have in my markers, the need to show people...you can have performance as good as it looks.

Is that so wrong? I don't think so. I think this all happens through change...and boy, has my mag changed since I first got it! And it keeps on changing today...(to be continued)

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by shartley

That's what I meant from my post; Tom wants to make a product that HE himself is proud to know is a very high quality product. But he's also saying that to sell volumes of it, it would have to look the part as well as perform well.

Personally, I've had my mag called ugly, I've had it called crap, but I can always counter "Hey, it may not look hot like your snazzy impulse, but it will still not chop, put ball on ball on ball, and have a hell of a lower profile. Oh yeah, and not to mention I've got the best reg on the market built into my valve. What's that about your maxflow now?"

I think Toms on the right track here. The karta bodies for example...if he did something like that for his electro (if that's indeed what he would do), there would be a lot of interest I think in the marker. Something like a logic framed electro with a slick body that could do big BPS and look the part doing it would put AGD right into the forefront of the market, IMO.

[epterry]

On a valve that took 4500psi how hard would the trigger pull be? Also what kind of hose would you use?

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm with those that say it's not unreasonable to expect both.

If TK wants to concentrate on function and not form, let him. But, he should open his horizons a little when it comes to marketing and sales. Make a plain, fully functional marker that can then be modified by anyone.

Look at how many versions of the Timmie, Matrix, etc are out there. The same COULD be done with AGD products. But, you'd have to have a product where the function critical tolererances were buried inside. So far we've had teh AGDE X-mag and the SFL EMag.

I think AGDs current approach with the custom RT-pro is great. But if they want to really expand their horizons, they should push sales of raw components to custom shops. TK has repeatedly complained about the thin profit margin on these high-end custom guns, so I don't see why he wouldn't embrace dropping AGD involvement in the final product. AGD could concentrate of the higher profit area of raw components and internals for custom shops and basic setups for the retail distributors.

[Quickling]

Also what kind of hose would you use?

Um.... can't you use the same steel braided that puts that 4500psi in your tank?

[tyrion2323]

I don't think that mags need anything extra.

xMags and karta/chord2 eMags are, simply put, the most attractive markers on the market. They outperform almost anything, they don't chop, and if Tom offered one to me, I'd drop my Omen (which I LOVE) and I'd proudly shoot AGD.

There's all these people b*tching and complaining about looks/weight/whatever. GET OVER IT.

Edit: In fact, I just got off the phone with my man Chris Corcino at Hybrid - he's hella cool - and he was saying that he wished that there were more mags around him so that Hybrid could warrant making 'mag parts. Tom - maybe you should talk to him...

I think that a viable solution could be:

Tom, if you're reading, I'd be willing to do some labor for you if you need. I don't know what that would mean, but I could assemble markers for free in my spare time, etc.... I'd do it all for FREE.

Jacob

[AGD]

GREAT THREAD!!! :)

Yes I dropped that line seeing if it would get a reaction and AO comes through once again. By "you" I don't mean AO I mean the collective paintball community that judges paintball products.

I have ALWAYS had the utmost respect for the people on this forum thats why I post virtually every day. If I am here all the time you get my good with my bad. I am super happy that everyone really likes the Tac-one even if they are not scenario guys. I am super frustrated by the paintball communitys (larger not AO) lack of interest in the big politics going on inside the industry.

Ballers are ALWAYS asking for something new, looks, performace, specs, price etc. Even though they may be completely oposite like more performance for less price they ask anyway as they should.

You want stuff and thats great, myself as a manufacturer and to stay in business, should move in the direction YOU desire. In the old days this was true, now this isn't and let me explain. If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. If "you" ask for an electronic gun I can't give it to you because I could go to court. If "you" want high performance I can't convince you its good unless a pro team uses it and I don't own one.

So what we have here is a disfunctional family. Everyone wants to interact with the people they think can make them happy but the industry dynamics are blocking the connections. Many, many players see this as "just the way it is". Perhaps this is the way of the future, if so I don't see where I can help you get something you want besides just making stuff LOOK different.

The only way out of this mess is to make a huge leap (of faith?) in a new direction that gets away from all the politics. The problem is no one wants to jump. Not the manfuacturers OR the players. As you have pointed out above the majority of comments on new products are on the looks and nothing else (well maybe weight).

So there we have it, the heard is standing on one side of the river, the lions are chewing them up one at a time because "thats the way it is". A few are saying "hey why don't we swim for it?" The rest of the heard is bellowing "no that's lame no one does that" and so time continues to march on.

AGD

[Patron God of Pirates]

Classic post.

I for one am standing on the opposite side of the river watching the action and eating popcorn.

If you are talking about heading in a more mechanical direction, I'm all for it. I'm still waiting for the mechs only tourny.

[Cryer]

/me is chillin in a lawn chair on the opposite side of the river throwing rocks and laughing at the cows.

How come when I started a thread similar to this, it didnt get much attention? I feel cheated

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by AGD
If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. AGD

I'm with you all the way here. In fact most people I talk to (that means with my voice not my fingers) don't have any idea what's going on industry wise and absolutely have no idea how that's slowing things down.


Now, to pick one issue...why wont companies buy licenses to use their technology from the patent holders? Will they not sell them? Are they charging too much to make a new product feasible?

[hardr0ck68]

completely off topic, when i was playing in Haveblues list of Pat's i found saw for a hopper from you AGD, any reason why it never was?

But yeah i agree 90% of the crap out there is exactly the same, hell WGP just released their first innovative autococker since....ever

The Angel is the same gun as it was in 98 with more gadgets hot-glued to it (oh look dear, my marker says their is a sever weather warning in the indo-china)

And everyone and their mom has a ram opperated electro, actually i think my mom is making her own Timmy, to be released next month. (has anyone noticed bobby and kingman have the same marketing? make a new one every week hype it as new and improved?)

Mags have a design more reliable than most, as consistant as most, less conplicated than most, less choppable than most, as smooth as most....so why doesnt it sell like the timmy? (lord knows its not a profile debate) or at least at the level of cockers!! Hell we had swing triggers before swing triggers were cool!