Is this what Tom "really" thinks of AO?

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by AGD


Ahh Contrare! Semi-autos were trashed when they first came out. Tournament players didn't even use them! The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump". Do you remember who originally introduced the Angel? It was Brass Eagle who then dropped it due to lack of interest. Con Air? The industry said it was dangerous and should be outlawed, it took YEARS to make it from when we first ran prototypes to general use. That was a long time ago before the marketing really took hold.

AGD

Yet we're all using them today. They caught on, not instantly, but they're still around and have dominated the market. People need to have it proven to them that an innovation is really worth it, and not by a company, by other players. That takes time. Get that right and the world gets nice and big

[AGD]

Just as a point of levity here guys I think this is a very good debate, lively, thoughtfull and entertaining. It represents the best of AO even if I do have to throw a little gas on the fire.

AGD

[AGD]

Lohman446,

You are certainly correct, AGD has had a history of inovation and development does drive most industries. But once again I have to point out that most of the inovation avenues in paintball are locked up for one reason or another at this point. Once inovation is blocked for some and not for others marketing inevitably becomes higher profile.

The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by AGD
Just as a point of levity here guys I think this is a very good debate, lively, thoughtfull and entertaining. It represents the best of AO even if I do have to throw a little gas on the fire.

AGD

Allright! Who pulled Tom's finger?

[spantol]

Sounds like you've answered your own rhetorical question there, Tom. If you can't innovate, you market, and if you can't do either, you lose market share to those that can.

Originally posted by AGD
Lohman446,

You are certainly correct, AGD has had a history of inovation and development does drive most industries. But once again I have to point out that most of the inovation avenues in paintball are locked up for one reason or another at this point. Once inovation is blocked for some and not for others marketing inevitably becomes higher profile.

The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

[Rope a Dope]

Someday Tom... Someday.

You'll just say screw it, take a Spyder and replace the hammer and spring with a ram, throw on some sorta board that buffers shots and has a noisy microswitch for the trigger and mill in a picture of Fred Durst from Limp Bizkit on the side and you'll make millions!!!

You'll have your own pimp cup with your name on it.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD


The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

Understand, that the technical ideas you floated out here are far beyond my understanding(and forgive me for the ones I screw up on, I have only a vague idea of what you are discussing) about a new bolt loading system, a 4500PSI valve (or higher), the warp sysem, lets even say a new hopper.

There is a leap of faith that has to be taken - and if you read my posts about the SP issue that leap should have taken. There should have been a multi-manufacturer stand against SP to derail that patent, or find a way around it. It sounds like optic triggers?? wtf is this, the emag trigger, and some other ideas get around it possibly.

Need use of a patent to build a better hopper, can you build a better hopper? Than do it with Oddysey or whatever company holds that patent you need. Share ideas whatever it takes.

It just seems to me, like some of the ideas you are teasing out here, are so innovative, that there cannot be existing patents on them. Are we discussing a smaller, higher pressure AIR valve type design? I mean it sounds to be like we may be able to do entirely away with electronics if we do? I could be wrong. This bolt thing about loading... I have the vaguest idea of what you mean, and if I am right the idea strikes me as... well not only patentable, but so desirable as to be hard for otehrs to follow.

We know now, patent the hell out of anything you innovate, before anyone else can, if its even a passing idea, build one, patent the SOB.

My point here is, that innovation canot be closed off, is it harder, sure it is. Is it impossible? Never, not as innovative as you have proven to be in the past.

Is this the best short term business model? No - hype, marketing a cheap product will gain you short term profit. The question is, how long before your name is destroyed, and then what do you do? Enron was looked at as the greatest business success story at one time. Be you, be what got you here, yes now you will need partners, other names, others to get further, but Tom, show me teh company in the industry that would pass up the chance to work wtih AGD. You are in a strong position to continue to lead the game forward, should you decide that is what you want to do.

[Digits]

Originally posted by Bolter
its like when the X valves had the writing a little skew and Tom was like "hey if you send em back i'll change it for a new valve" and everyone was going mad over this and sending in their valves.

I kept mine. Whats the difference? If it works 100% then cool surely? I mean yeah if it comes to you all scratched up then exchange, but seriously, cause the writing was off by millimeters, AGD lost out on loads of money.

I was just having a conversation with someone today on a similar subject. I sent him a picture of Cphils new dealer bits gun. And they said wow thats the first mag thats looked decent, but it ain't nothin over the DM4 or A4. I commented that blenders look nice but the mag/Emag/Xmag will out perform anything out there and STILL not chop paint. It should be about performance, over looks anyday.

I don't know if i'm right forsure.. But i'm pretty sure AGD didn't loose any money on this, they just sold the valves seperate or with the RTP customs.. Just because the X-mag body, and some of the custom bodies are the only ones that even go over the valve.. So it's not like they had to throw all those valves away..

[Athius]

I THINK ILL GET FLAMED BY SAYIN' THIS.

Why doesnt AGD redesign completely the E-Mag like Smart Parts did with the old shocker?

I know that there's the X-mag but it is the same thing as any emag but with ACE, interchangeble breaches and aluminum.

[AGD]

Innovation is overated (can you believe I would say that?:))

Let me throw out another point of view here for discussion. In a perfect world, innovation solves...a problem. That is the fundamental thing that makes it worthwhile to pursue. In the old days there were all kinds of problems like CO2, stick loaders and having to pump. Now virtually all of the guns on the market work pretty darn good (leaving out BE). There are not a lot of real fundamental problems. Mousetraps work really well so if you design a new one, people don't beat a path to your door contrary to the old addage.

So in order to innovate in paintball, we have to start with a problem, THEN innovate. Most problems like accuracy are at the end of the road. Even though you see it as a problem, there is no real fix or easy road too improvement. Simon and I both though the hopper on top of the gun wsa a problem buy you didn't think so.

So here I am talking to my customers daily waiting to see what the next big, real or perceived, problems will be. The thing is with every question you get a hundred answers. Clarity is not easy to come by around here.

AGD

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Athius
I THINK ILL GET FLAMED BY SAYIN' THIS.

Why doesnt AGD redesign completely the E-Mag like Smart Parts did with the old shocker?

I know that there's the X-mag but it is the same thing as any emag but with ACE, interchangeble breaches and aluminum.

I guess because the old Shocker was a huge Brick and the new one is a rip off of the Matrix. What should Tom redesign? Is there a faster valve out there then the R/T? Don't think so. Unless he can make it faster, why bother?

[camilion705]

To improve the emag you:

Put in a smaller battery so that you can use a foregrip instead. (The battery goes into a standard gas through grip...)

and a smaller grip frame that isn't so bulky. (Like the Logic maybe?)

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD

So here I am talking to my customers daily waiting to see what the next big, real or perceived, problems will be. The thing is with every question you get a hundred answers. Clarity is not easy to come by around here.

AGD

You want to hear it, and it may be technically impossible, I have no idea really. Like I said, I am not good at the technical side of physics.

In my opinon - the next thing that people will pound on your door for involves efficiency, and nto the efficiency we are discussing now.

Either a totally electric type thing where movement of a piston compresses air to supply the marker (no thats not well thought out, you get my idea) or a new air supply system. Something that gets rid of that air tank that we are all dependent on (why did moving them to our backs nto work?? The same reason the warp meets with less than stunning success?? I dont know). The poitn is, uber efficiency, something unheard of or considered today, likely impossible with nitro, is what I feel is the next meaningful step in paintball. I have to agree, we haev likely hit the upper limits (or close) of accuracy and possible speed (though you hint we have not). BTW, your four fingered trigger system, patent the hell out of it, make one to satisfy that patent, double triggers were considered poor form for a long time.

Theres a problem, is it solvable?

[luke]

Tom, in regard to patents is the high-pressure gun you have in mind doable or not?

[Brophog]

Originally posted by AGD
In the old days there were all kinds of problems like CO2, stick loaders and having to pump.

Some of us wouldn't even go that far!

But I agree with Tom here. That was one of the points I tried to diligently make in the BPS arguments; the fact that we don't need it anymore!

We're at the limit of effective speed.
We've discussed the limitations to accuracy.
Efficiency has just become a number.

Is there anything else to innovate? I liken this to the automotive industry. For years now, we've essentially done all that we're going to do with a combustion engine. Its been tweaked again and again.

But they have to put out new cars. So, we see cars coming out in new styles, with features like DVD players, navigation software, fancy looks.

Its still a car though. You still drive it the same, getting about the same fuel economy, at the same speeds.

Paintball is at this stage. What problem do we need to solve? I still play pump with CO2 (weather permitting) because I'm still able to eliminate those with Angels, Emags, and Timmy's. We haven't got to the point that the marker technology has changed enough for me to warrant an expensive purchase.

The question becomes, will it? I'm sure we'll see some speed increases, some new loaders come out, but does any of that really help you complete the task at hand: effectively eliminating you opposition.

What we will see, is even more team sponsorships. That's one of the few ways a manufacturer can get you to try his product over one of his competitors. If TEAM X shoots it, then people will buy it.

Is that what AGD needs to do? I don't think so. Why get back into the ratrace, when there are even more manufacturers than ever before, selling similiar products.

We've seen in this sport, that small time manufacturers with a loyal following can sustain themselves without marketing or reinventing the wheel. CCI is a great example. They don't put out a million phantoms a year, but they survived the decline of pumps by putting out a top notch product, with effective pricing, and brand loyalty. Their marketing came from users, not advertisements. Throw in a few markers to help support various pump tournaments, give people numerous custom options, and maintain hold of YOUR segment of the market. CCI survived the gravest period for pumps by doing these practices. Now, as the speed of markers goes even higher, we're seeing more and more pumps on the market, and more and more users giving them a try.

That's what I don't understand about users either wanting AGD to compete for either the upper eschelon, or for the entry level market. Those areas are full of companies who can't separate themselves from one another, whom must resort to high priced marketing and price slashing to compete. That's what happens when your not able to hold a technology advantage over competition. Marketing and price slashing will resort in more companies losing money in the end than it does in companies coming out on top.