Is this what Tom "really" thinks of AO?

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Brophog


Efficiency has just become a number.

Let me agree with everything you have said, and the probability that, given current technology, you are right here.

Bear with me though, for I am looking for the next problem to overcome. WHat if I could offer you (no not you, someone who likes semis hehe) a marker the size of a VSC phantom (or so) that had its own self contained air system or "mini compressor" system that could fire off, say 600 paintballs, or infinite (if its an electronically driven "mini compressor" system). Would you be interested?

PS - I have no such thing in the works, no technical ability to get it there, etc.

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by AGD

You want stuff and thats great, myself as a manufacturer and to stay in business, should move in the direction YOU desire. In the old days this was true, now this isn't and let me explain. If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. If "you" ask for an electronic gun I can't give it to you because I could go to court. If "you" want high performance I can't convince you its good unless a pro team uses it and I don't own one.

The only way out of this mess is to make a huge leap (of faith?) in a new direction that gets away from all the politics. The problem is no one wants to jump. Not the manfuacturers OR the players. As you have pointed out above the majority of comments on new products are on the looks and nothing else (well maybe weight).


AGD

Tom, I don't necessarily think it's true that you have to have a pro team using something to make it popular. It helps, true, but prior to actually purchasing my mag, I'd heard how nice they were, and how reliable. I believed it, even though a lot of people told me "get a cocker, so much better", and I couldn't be happier with my mag. Hell, I want another one. The thing is, word of mouth is also a powerful tool for getting exposure, as are people who say "Here, you think it sucks? Shoot it and tell me it still sucks."

And Tom, as for that leap? I'd be behind you if you chose to make that leap. Why? Because I'm replying right now...you care enough about the people that shoot mags to be here, interacting with them on a personal level, not as a godly entity that is out of our reach as mere players. The mere fact that you choose to do business in this manner proves to me that you care what WE want, not just what the current industry hype is.

My $.02, for what it's worth.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by robdamanii


Tom, I don't necessarily think it's true that you have to have a pro team using something to make it popular. It helps, true, but prior to actually purchasing my mag, I'd heard how nice they were, and how reliable. I believed it, even though a lot of people told me "get a cocker, so much better", and I couldn't be happier with my mag. Hell, I want another one. The thing is, word of mouth is also a powerful tool for getting exposure, as are people who say "Here, you think it sucks? Shoot it and tell me it still sucks."

You don't know how blindly people follow hype... I could give my ultylxrt pro to my teammate for a day and tell him to compare it to his stock orracle... and you know what he'd say? "My orracle is better." He blindly follows the cocker craze and he believes that a cocker could outperform any marker on the market. He's starting to make the electro jump and next he'll be saying his cocker sucked and there will be nothing better than a timmy, even when there is already something better out there. People in paintball are too arrogant to give a new product a chance.

For example, look at this thread:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125899

Look at all the intial responses. Do you see "it's ugly", "it probably sucks", "it's ugly and looks like x marker so it probably sucks", "it looks like a ripoff of y marker", "it has ugly fittings so it probalby sucks and is low quality"? There's no proof that it sucks or that it's low quality. There's no proof that it's a ripoff. People assume that it sucks because it looks like it would be a ripoff of a bushy or a dragun marker. Woop dee freaking doo, who cares if it LOOKS like a crappy marker or a poor ripoff of a good midrange marker? Apparently more than half of the people who responded do. I know that AO's percentage of these types is less than what is compared to in real paintball. That means about 30% of paintballers would probably say something along the lines of "it sucks" and then another 40% would follow in that notion. Bam, instant rejection upon no proof at all. Paintball is full of lemmings.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Lohman446




Bear with me though, for I am looking for the next problem to overcome. WHat if I could offer you (no not you, someone who likes semis hehe) a marker the size of a VSC phantom (or so) that had its own self contained air system or "mini compressor" system that could fire off, say 600 paintballs, or infinite (if its an electronically driven "mini compressor" system). Would you be interested?

Interesting question. I'll tackle it from the semi side of things.

If I'm a semi user, I must consider the infrastructure necessary to accomplish my task. That's why weight isn't important to me. As a pump user, I may only have on me 400 balls for a LARGE scenario game, a 9 oz tank, and maybe a cheap 100 round hopper. Weight is an issue to me as a pump user, because why take away a mobility advantage, when I'm already at a perceived firepower disadvantage? As a semi user, I'm gonna have no less than 1000 rounds on me, a tank capable of shooting that, and a loader capable of feeding that. Marker weight isnt an issue, because I'm gonna need a heavy harness to carry that paint, a large tank to shoot that paint, and a big, heavy agitated hopper to feed that paint. At that point, what is 8 ounces more or less on my marker?

As far as the air compressor idea, first of all, it has to be able to deliver me constant pressure, at a high enough volume to deliver those 1000 balls. We can do that already with the high pressure systems of today? My question then becomes to you, what problem are we solving.

I like the question though. This is the sort of hypotheticals we were discussing in the technology thread, before it died off.

[Lohman446]

Assume I can give you infinite, consistant pressure and get the tank, and its weight out of the way... does it make it worth it? I see what your saying though, the tank is a stock anyway, so almsot integral to the gun anyways. Is such a thing desirable, I would have considered an integral battery powered mini compressor awesome, no worrying about air fills, play anywhere anytime - even if you did not gain anything in teh size category, am I off base on this theory, or on the size theory?

[Meph]

Originally posted by AGD
The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump".

AGD

Yeah well he also allows a RamRod barrel testing to be published with the barrel getting great reviews DESPITE having no report on it's performance! APG have their head up their...

HEY HEY KIDS! (Krusty Laugh)


Tom you are kind of right on the "nobody wants to get into the politics" but at the same time when was the last time you saw CNN talking about paintball politics? And dear God how many teams would sacrifice their sponsorship to talk bad about the industry when they can just keep quiet and continue to get the free ride? And how many times do you see threads in a forum about the politics only to turn up 10 minutes later into a childish little bickering flame pit that eventually either gets ignored, or closed due to the immature posts being jacked back and forth?

It's kind of hard to talk about politics when really there isn't anywhere to talk about it! If you don't believe me then please, go to PBNation.com and make a thread about the SP lawsuit. You can use a stopwatch to time how fast it will be when it gets thrashed by dumb kids and eventually ruin the entire topic.

If you're serious about wanting politics talked about there's going to have to be a seperate website or forum devoted specifically to it. Where only certain people are allowed... aka people in the Industry. Would be like a Warpig.com interview of a player, only instead would be devoted to the hot topics of today.

Or maybe even a Crossfire session on WebDog Radio perhaps? C'mon, wouldn't you love to be videotapes having a debate/discussion across the table from the Gardners Tom? I bet people would pay money to see that!

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh


Yeah, I guess your right...

But everyone knows your impy SUCKS if it doesnt have an LPR, new bolt, hammer, ram, and gripframe. I mean, come on, why would they build aftermarket parts if they don't work?

WAit, they don't suck then too?

I was never aware...

[FutureMagOwner]

hehe noticed what i posted though foo? :)


anyway tom what about the point i brought up it kinda has to do with what your basically saying (although not saying you should follow that path exactly)

[Brophog]

OK, lets assume that we do have a micro compressor able to continuously generate a reliable, constant air source. We add on a lightweight fabricated stock to give us the stability we had with a tank.

Potentially you could lose the weight of the tank. However, we would get the weight back in the weight of the compressor, plus we will need an energy source for this compressor. That will require either a separate battery or a much larger voltage than we currently generate.

At one time I would have said something like this would have been great for providing constant air. However, now a days, we don't see as much play on private lands, and much more on commercial fields. For most commercial fields, supplying air, in either CO2 or HPA, is not a problem.

[Meph]

Originally posted by AGD

So in order to innovate in paintball, we have to start with a problem, THEN innovate

AGD

Want some problems to work on innovation? Okay, I can think of a few things that contribute to being problematic for AGD....

1) Dealers/Availability. Sure banners on AO promote the Tac One body, but what good is that for outside AO? You need the dealers to know you support them, and in return to have them pushing your products hard.

2) Price. Obviously everybody wants the cheaper the better, which is why Kingman is in business still because they sell in such bulk volume and reduce costs drastically over the volume. But as well when you have your 'top of the line' markers such as the E-mag going for... what, about $800 or so? People talk themselves out of it by going the route of Matrix or 03Shocker or Impulse. Of course this is a hard obsticle to overcome when you're not exactly making Dragun Empire volume of mags!

3) Myths. Too many people still have the "it's a mag" mentality, despite anything you tell or show them. Because of this they'll never buy one and will continue to thrash them.

4) Efficiency. You know the latest craze now is that you must have 2000 shots off a 12gram, right? Gotta get that goin for ya!

5) Hype. Now I'm not sure everybody agrees, but I think there are 2 types of hype. There is bullarchy for a polite version! :) This is the "closed bolt" or "venturi bolt" or "seal forward technology" type of Hype. The myths and bull that are used to boost sales to ignant twibs. But I feel there's another type of hype. And companies are using it to their advantage, like AKA. 40cps hype, 2100 shots off a 68/4500 tank hype. Tippmann's A-5 fastest marker/feed system on the market hype. Dynasty Octane Naughty dogs Brimstone Effect edition hype. THIS type of hype, the stuff used to promote the bloody item. It's not lying, it's not pulling punches, it's not using 80's myths. It's telling the truth but in a fancy marketing take-advantage-of-twib kind of way.

6) The brown box! Sorry just had to mention it.

7) Manual. I'm not talking full out 40 page WDP manual, but at least something that's a few pages explaining everything. Troubleshooting and fixing. How it works. Stats. Parts breakdown. All that good jazz.

[Lord_Whoopass]

As far as the gun works you cant really innovate it... My AGD guns work great... heres a problem I have found with them and the "normal" paintball consumers however...
Efficiency... My frontman likes the feel of my mag but doesnt like having to carry around a 68/4500 to the fifty... He has a very happy trigger finger and just unloads paint for being a front... anyways I am sure you have already thought about this but if there is anyway you could innovate the valve to be more gas efficient I think it would be a great step for Mag Kind...

[Heebs]

Probably one of my biggest qulams with getting an AGD marker is the looks. I know that it can perform with the best of the best but it just looks plain. A perfect example that a great looking marker will sell is Deadly Wind's Karta bodies. Those things sell like hotcakes and you said it yourself that they "drip sex." The TAC-1 got a nice welcome which I believe is in part due to the fact that it looked the part. I drooled over the milling pattern of the X-mag (along with countless others).

I believe you also said that most markers now a days work pretty darn well. So what is left to really make one marker stand out from another? Customer support? AGD already has that down. Efficiency? I really wouldnt know the numbers for Mags. Weight? ULE options covers that. Speed? Mags already are fast. Anti Chop? Mags already have LVL 10 and ACE. Reliabilty? Mags are rock solid. Looks? Here is where guns are going to differ. The real difference between a DM4 and a Aced Emag (to me at least) is that one looks pretty cool and one looks rather plain.

So I suppose I am beating a dead horse with others saying that AGD design + a little sexy milling = greater sales. I would also bet that if AGD released the Warp Sluggo bodies so aftermarket bodies like the Karta could be produced then you would sell more Warp Feeds. I for one dont like the adaptor and a CF.

Heebs - Official PhOG poser.

[SirTim]

Speaking about marketing and sales, I think Heebs is dead on. Most of the high-end markers perform pretty good, the only thing that AGD lacks is look. There is some great posts making correlation on automobiles and paintball markers. One of the key elements people choose one markers over the other is more on looks than ever. If a marker looks great on the rack or on the field, it automatically attracts people ask questions about it. People will want to feel it, shoot it. It all started with the look, of course, you have to back it up with performance and quality to sell in quantity.

Personally, I think Mag looks are too plain with the exception of the XMag.

[DWill]

I would say a much larger percent of AO are more hypocritcal now then they were a few years ago. For example of you look at the thread where Tom asks on first impressions on the O3 Odessey a lot of them were negitive and based purely on looks alone.

I would say it is time for AO to wake up and stop saying things when they really don't mean it. If you get a new marker then don't go posting pictures up and saying it is good because it is all shiney...wow us with its performance.
In response to the people who are telling Tom to build new innovative ideas and saying we as a paintball community would buy it, I would say that this is totally false.

I have seen Tom release something new and unique, then get burned for it again and again because no one would by it because it was too far from the norm. AO has another tendacy to say that they will buy a certain item in huge quantities, then when the item is released barely any sales at all, look at the z-grip and the rolling trigger for examples. So I guess my message is thing about what you are saying before you say it, and make sure it is true....

[robdamanii]

I think you make a good point, but it's also true that in many cases, markers that perform nearly the same, the deciding factor is looks. I personally think Mags are a beautiful marker, but I know people who think they look like crap, and they shoot like crap.

The Z-Grip was ahead of it's time, that's how I see it.

With the X-mag and E-mag, I see AGD sitting on a higher level than it was several years ago. I think now would be the time to follow on the heels of that success and bring something new into the market.