Is this what Tom "really" thinks of AO?

[UThomas]

So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works. Sponser a team with it and see if it sells.

I'm guessing the cost of research and development makes the cost of failure too great for them to just build things and throw them out there and see how they do. They must make calculated decisions, and it would seem that they have calculated that the market (us) will not embrace this technology enough to get a good return on their R&D $$$$.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Have to disagree to a large extent with that statement.

In many cases the guns work fine from the factory. It's the players who are easily separated from their money for "upgrades" of little value other than hype or ego.

Yeah, I guess your right...

But everyone knows your impy SUCKS if it doesnt have an LPR, new bolt, hammer, ram, and gripframe. I mean, come on, why would they build aftermarket parts if they don't work?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.

I'm sure as soon as you invest the 100,000's of dollars it would take to do everything you want AGD will get right on it.

You do understand that building something and proving it will work does not directly translate into return on investment. That's the whole point of the thread.

Tom's saying that it's not worth it to AGD to build it and proove it will work because no-one will buy it anyway do to the guns not being "Low Pressure" and the rest being too far from the norm for the sheep to except.

[Kaiser Bob]

If I were rich to the point of philanthropy, Id give Tom a million dollars without blinking to see what he could come up with. Ballers are slow to accept something different, but something truly radical especially something drastically contrary in EVERY way from the norm will turn heads no matter what, guarenteed.

[spantol]

I said it in the last thread, and I'll say it again here: The only way to fight these and other popular notions is through marketing. Complaining about it on your message board accomplishes little.

The technology Tom describes could very well be another inflection point in paintball, similar to the introductions of constaint air, semi-auto markers, and electronically-actuated firing cycles. Perhaps unfortunately, the market has changed dramatically in recent years. Previous potentially game-altering technologies could succeed or fail largely on their own merits. Now, a new product doesn't just compete with established products, it competes with marketing budgets as well.

Today, it's not enough to out perform the competition; you have to out market them, too.

Originally posted by TheTramp
Tom's saying that it's not worth it to AGD to build it and proove it will work because no-one will buy it anyway do to the guns not being "Low Pressure" and the rest being too far from the norm for the sheep to except.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
something truly radical especially something drastically contrary in EVERY way from the norm will turn heads no matter what, guarenteed.

I agree with this to a point but like you inply, how many of us have the $ and are willing to gamble it on the paintball public?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm sure as soon as you invest the 100,000's of dollars it would take to do everything you want AGD will get right on it.

BUT TK keeps complaining he COULD do it if only the community would somehow embrace it.

Well, I say phooey. He's the one making the claims and whining (sorry can't think of a politer word) that the community would never buy it. So really, either build it and amaze us all. Or keep quiet.

TK is essentially complaining he COULD innovate and blow the competition away but he's being held back.

Well, if AGD hadn't sat on their laurels for so long and refused to review their product line (or concentrate on non-paintball activities, fn303, palentology, ...) or market in any organised fashion, who's to blame?

The paintball community for not buying the products that didn't meet their wants or the company that refused to look into what the community wanted and modify their marker?

AGD has FINALLY rationalised their product line and now you can build the marker YOU want and they've adopted some new parts/styles that meet current expectations. Now they need to market, hype, sell, and get the volume up.

But, AGD is going to have to revisit it's production strategy if they want the volume. Can't have X-mag or 4500psi Flatline production type problems if you want to grab market share.

AGD seems to be a bit like Apple computers. Great company, but they'd make more money and get more of the market if they'd let just a little of the production out of their hands.

[AGD]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Pre-load bolt systems---elliminating ball feed lag.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.
Pressure feeding ---, Warp Feeds....
Good idea, fair execution, bad marketing, no sponsorship, bad public perception. Tough bannanas, markets are like that.
[/B]

This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by AGD

Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

So prove it- market a product, sell it big. Use the revenue from the mass sale of AGD products to put towards the R&D for something, so that way even if it does flop, it's not going to destroy the company.

I think PB is more accepting to new ideas than you give it credit for- Semi-auto, electros, CA, that sort of thing.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by AGD
This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.
AGD

But that's a basic premise to every product ever made and every market.

To REALLY beat everyone else you have to market AND innovate.

Look, if you came out with a marker that was truly tiny and operated direct of 4500psi AND hit the market hyping it to the max you WOULD sell.

But, you have to have sufficient production to meet the initial demand or the consumers will lose interest quickly.

I'd say that's the downfall of flatline tanks.

Once they've lost interest, it's near impossible to get them back.

[JuggaloDave]

i would love to atleast see working prototypes of some of this stuff, just cause i love looking at stuff that is all crazy, new and innovative. granted i would also love to see agd make a cocker lol(r/t cocker?! i can dream), cause i am a cocker guy. also, with the whole marketing thing, sell the base rt at 399 and make it the R/T am, ad then the full ule rt with the works for 510 as the r/t pro; then again, everyone knows what the next person should do, we just cannot figure out how to do for ourselves at times.

[Brophog]

That logic is so skewed, I don't know where to start.

AGD seems to be a bit like Apple computers. Great company, but they'd make more money and get more of the market if they'd let just a little of the production out of their hands.

How does this apply? Apple screwed themselves over with that proprietary software crap in the 1980's. I kinda see how that applies, considering that AGD is kinda on its own flank here, however, its not been due to innovation that has kept AGD in that spot. AGD helped innovate constant air, semi auto markers, high pressure air, and force feed hopper technology. Those are the four biggest factors in the way the game is played today.

AGD has FINALLY rationalised their product line and now you can build the marker YOU want and they've adopted some new parts/styles that meet current expectations. Now they need to market, hype, sell, and get the volume up.

Again, not AGD's fault here. I agree that they don't have the marketing department of the large volume guys, name me a small volume company that does? WDP, WGP, and Smart Parts, just to name 3 have huge marketing divisions, but are they pulling in the money to justify such expenditures.

However, its not for lack of materials that has kept AGD "down". High pressure, stainless steel bodies, and slip fit barrels are all BETTER than what the competition is oozing out. The problem is the consumer is ill informed, and due to the "herd nature" of the average paintballer (teenager) you get consumers who don't care what they buy.

Stainless steel is SO much nicer when it comes to durability and threading. Sure it weighs a bit more, but this is offset by the other factors.

High Pressure air IS more efficient, and allows for smaller components. High pressure = low volume. Low volume = smaller. Low pressure air is nothing more than hype! This crap about it being "easier on balls" and more efficient is wrong. Tuning your marker correctly, and attaining LP as a side effect is more efficient, but the LP itself is not.

This isn't what the consumer wants though. That's why this quote doesn't work:

BUT TK keeps complaining he COULD do it if only the community would somehow embrace it.

At this point in time, if he puts down $200,000 to build a marker, he has to know that he can get a return on his investment. It takes a lot of money to change your production to something else, not counting material/labor cost. You can't just say "build it" and expect people to accept it. You can't invest that kind of money just because the product is "better". People have to buy it.

Paintball is the ulitimate hype industry. More lies are passed as truth in this industry than in any other that I can think of. I respect Tom because he doesn't cater to everyone's whims. He builds a solid product, with quality workmanship, and excellent service. He's not about volume and gimmicks.

[AGD]

Originally posted by teufelhunden

I think PB is more accepting to new ideas than you give it credit for- Semi-auto, electros, CA, that sort of thing.

Ahh Contrare! Semi-autos were trashed when they first came out. Tournament players didn't even use them! The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump". Do you remember who originally introduced the Angel? It was Brass Eagle who then dropped it due to lack of interest. Con Air? The industry said it was dangerous and should be outlawed, it took YEARS to make it from when we first ran prototypes to general use. That was a long time ago before the marketing really took hold.

AGD

[punkncat]

Originally posted by AGD


This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

Beat down by da man! Another victim of the system.

It is truly a shame that you are not a endlessly wealthy man , and able to pour funding into making reality out of the ideas you have.It would be really nice to see someone rock the boat in spite of loosing their @ss due to disintrest in the marketplace..... oh well.(sigh)

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD


This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

Let me pause before the statement, and note as I did in the other thread that spawned this that I have a great amount of respect for you TK, and for the mag design.

Now, having said this, think back. Nitro, would anyone have accepted it if you did not use it (and win) first. No, in fact, even when you were winning with it everyone was complaining, you even have some very top people (Palmer) saying CO2 is a better choice still. Look around at nitro, its there - you brought it, and yuo didn't ask first. You knew it was good, you supported it, you pushed it, you innovated it, it caught on.

Lets look at the known "failures". Perfectly round paintballs. I cannot begin to tell you why this didn't work, but how much testing did you do, or did you buy into the hype first? and then make it. Were you wrong, would I have done otherwise? NO. A good share of the respect I have for you, comes from this error - and your admitting it was an error. Too many companies would have stated all the reasons why a perfectly round painbtall must be better, and sold them at whatever cost it took to make a profit. The PB community, those following hype, would have bought into it. I would have bought into it and I dont normally buy hype, it just makes sense. We, the players, owe you more than we could imagine for not forcing this onto the market.

Tell me my two piece barrel system is no good - then build me a better performing barrel, show me it in tests, tell me it is better, and I will buy it. Don't tell me its the Crown Point (or whatever) barrel out there now. If what I have is not what is good, tell me, put your name on it, and offer it - your name is the reason I have an e-mag and not something else. Show me this one piece barrel, made to tournament grade, and sell me the thing. Or tell me who does. It seems intuitive to me that paint to barrel match is important, thats why I use a kit. Show me it isnt, tell me what the barrel to buy is, and I will buy it. By the way, I hated my custom products one piece barrel, it did nto shoot straight, and it did not clean itself.

The Z-grip, marketed to the tourney crowd who had compacted their markers to nearly turning their tanks around. Was this the best answer to the problems, or were shorter drops? Good idea, but I think the shorter drops give more advantages, added stability for me. BTW, you let the hype try to sell this.

The warp? I don't know, I have not seen a backpack warp offered - it exists in theory but show me where I can buy one. BTW - I don't like the idea, you would have to show me that the hose would nto catch, same as the remote air systems.

The point is, your greatest successes have come from making an innovation - putting it out there, showing us it worked as you said it did, and pushing it against the hype others would have against it. Make this better marker, take the risk, and show us. BTW learn from the past and patent the hell out of every moving part and every theory that makes it work. Share these patents with who you choose. If these marker innovations are so great, then push forward, you know they work, you know that you have some following, and AGD could well be at the top again. You started as nothing once, made the top. It is attainable again, you have a better followign then you did in the 90s, will it be harder, yes there is more competition, the tournament teams now play for $$. Is it impossible? No. Is it possible to beat SP, WDP, and the others in their own game, with hype? Sure... but I think your morals are too high to do it.


Show me the marker, tell me it is better, tell me why, and I will start saving my coins for it. Why didnt I buy an X-mag rather than an E-mag, well for all the money difference, noone could tell me the performance advantage.

Edit: Its not my name on the building, its not my name on the product, it is not my years of work that built AGD into what it is. All the decisions ultimately come down to what you want, and noone can blame you for them. But it seems to me, like you are frustrated and need a long vactation, or to relook at what got you to where you were. It was not following the hype - if it was we would have closed bolt mags by now.