Deadlywind hAir trigger demo video

[Brophog]

You cant judge these technologies by the "rules" we have now.

There are no real procedures or testing being done now on marker legitimacy. The testing is in its infacy, and that is why some are complaining so loudly about how the testing is being done. You cannot expect the haphazardly way that they are checking markers now to continue. They're just starting this entire testing process.

I fully expect in the years to come for the testing to mature and develop and better rules and procedures to be written. I'm not sure what those rules will be, or exactly what procedures will be used, but I am pointing out possible ways that this technology could fail them.

Understand?

[Digits]

What are these drop tests?

[Mag89]

Me want one!!!

[ncsurfer00]

Brophog, think positively!


I doubt these things will bounce. I don't even think the morons in LA on the JT field smacking guns could make one of these bounce.

[Brophog]

I'm not thinking positively or negatively.

I'm just pointing a fact out amongst the googly eyed posts here. Some believe this to be some kind of saviour for not only Mags, but maybe mechanicals in general. It may be, and then again maybe it won't.

I'm just pointing out some notions that this technology may not be far removed from electros when the smoke clears and the tourney circuits figure out exactly how they want to handle some of the rules. There is obviously a push to clean some areas up, but we don't really know how or when that will come to pass.

Plus, it may not be solely on one circuit either. There has been evidence in past posts about ASTM standards concerning drop tests on markers. Any marker that has an extremely light and short pull, as this one appears to have, must be concerned that it could possibly be failing in this regard.

Just take a step back. There seems to be lots of conversation in the areas of fairness and safety regarding our sport. I would not be surprised if in the coming years, either a safety organization like ASTM steps in and defines standards on markers (much like they do with goggles and other equipment), or the tourney circuits or other governing bodies take a stand against several types of markers. Both of these types of things have happened before, on a wide range of equipment.

[Scircal]

You cant judge these technologies by the "rules" we have now.

There are no real procedures or testing being done now on marker legitimacy. The testing is in its infacy, and that is why some are complaining so loudly about how the testing is being done. You cannot expect the haphazardly way that they are checking markers now to continue. They're just starting this entire testing process.

I fully expect in the years to come for the testing to mature and develop and better rules and procedures to be written. I'm not sure what those rules will be, or exactly what procedures will be used, but I am pointing out possible ways that this technology could fail them.

Understand?

I've got to admit, you're at least consistent in your irrational animus to guns that fire over the arbitrary 13 bps limit. Of course, you are right about the methods of testing. They will develop and become more refined. However, if the rule is going to continue to be that the gun just need to be semi-auto, one pull one shot and not overly sensitive, prepare to be disappointed. As this innovation shows, you don't need a cheater board to fire faster than 13 bps. In fact, you don't need electronics at all.

So don't assume they can set the basic semi-auto rule up that will prevent people from going faster than 13 bps. In fact, I'd bet Deadlywind could engineer the trigger to still perform much the same and not fail the various tests UNLESS that test is a flat-out bps cap. And I'm not sure the rules will necessarily move in the way of a flat-out cap. However, that doesn't mean judges can't "crack down on triggers" that skirt or bypass the rule of one pull, one shot. But it might mean the enforcement won't lead to a lower bps.

You aren't impressed? You don't think it belongs on a paintball marker? Good. Bully for you. However, as this thread attests, there is a market for the non-cheater, rapid-fire guns. Don't act like it's immoral or unethical for people not to join hands with you, standing athwart history yelling "Stop!"

[Automaggin2]

If this is released, and a complete gun is within my price range (700-800 dollars), then I would definatly buy one.

The reason why i switched to cockers 2 years ago is because i felt mags were a dieng breed. Shortly after recieving my cocker the xvalve was released, level 10 was all worked out, iFrame, yframes, ULEs, and sluggos were all released.

If this comes out, then I will definatly sell my cocker and move back to mags. Well, actully, I probably am even if this doesnt come out.

[Dubstar112]

Simply add pull weight. Whether it requires a spring or a magnet, its not hard to over come pull weight issues(too light, too heavy, too somthing...)

I think this is great. First, AGD's Emag, pioneering trigger setup, and now the Deadly wind hAir trigger. No batteries. Progession at its' best.

I dont understand the dying breed thing. If somthing is less popular where is the logic that makes somone switch to somthing more popular? The reason I ended up with a cocker was luck...

Again, whether or not i buy one depends on my other interest. Snowmobiles. Ive been in snowmobile racing for 8 years now, and its finally really taking off. Money needed for racing may come from my new Specialized Big Hit Mtn bike, and my paintball...

[shades]

Dear TK,

From the first time I saw your marker five years ago(a Classic 68Automag) I thought to myself "This is a marker made for paintball, not pieced together from off the self technology, simple, functional, low maintenance, reliable and precise. I will own one." Well, I have four. I believe in your products. I believe in your slogon "Quality Always Shoots Straight." So far, what I have seen from you and your company is that you take your slogan to heart and apply that to your products as well as your customers. If you decide to release a form of H-Air trigger I expect "Quality", reliablity, precision, and simplicity from your product.
I personally will wait for a perfected version and continue to eliminate players with my two E-mags, MiniMag, and RT.
Yes, I will and always have compared my Mags to other markers because, in my opinion, no other marker can compare. Really.

Thanks,
Shades
Age 38
TeaM D.E.D.

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by AGD
All right, I am going to throw some water on this fire.

So if we make this and there is a huge waiting list are you going to be upset?

Are you going to tell me "If you don't get it out now, no one is going to buy it"?

If the first batch has issues, are you going to ask me what's taking so long?

How many of you are willing to overpay to get it right away and then we charge you to upgrade it with fixes later?

Will you compare it to your 'fill in the blank' electro and tell us your battery powered gizmo is still better?

When cheater boards are made legal the same way all the other cheats in paintball have evolved, will you dump this?


This is my reality, your comments?

AGD

Tom:
No. Just anxious to get one, of course.

I'd buy it when it came out. Good things come to those who wait.

If the first batch has issues, I'd assume they would be resolved to the best of AGD's ability, and reasonably to the consumer.

I want quality, not speed. Show me it works without huge glitches, and it's reliable, and I'll be there.

I like my angel yes, but I LOVE my mag. It's the perfect marker for me, and this would just be icing on the cake.

Screw the cheater boards, it just makes my mechanical mag toting butt get better to beat them a different way.

That's my answers to your reality.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Scircal


I've got to admit, you're at least consistent in your irrational animus to guns that fire over the arbitrary 13 bps limit. Of course, you are right about the methods of testing. They will develop and become more refined. However, if the rule is going to continue to be that the gun just need to be semi-auto, one pull one shot and not overly sensitive, prepare to be disappointed. As this innovation shows, you don't need a cheater board to fire faster than 13 bps. In fact, you don't need electronics at all.

So don't assume they can set the basic semi-auto rule up that will prevent people from going faster than 13 bps. In fact, I'd bet Deadlywind could engineer the trigger to still perform much the same and not fail the various tests UNLESS that test is a flat-out bps cap. And I'm not sure the rules will necessarily move in the way of a flat-out cap. However, that doesn't mean judges can't "crack down on triggers" that skirt or bypass the rule of one pull, one shot. But it might mean the enforcement won't lead to a lower bps.

You aren't impressed? You don't think it belongs on a paintball marker? Good. Bully for you. However, as this thread attests, there is a market for the non-cheater, rapid-fire guns. Don't act like it's immoral or unethical for people not to join hands with you, standing athwart history yelling "Stop!"

I'll pretend you didn't attack me personally. You obviously lack the mental capacity to look at the big picture. I've never proposed a set cap, muchless with the number of 13. I have been part of various, mature discussions on the topic of markers, with people mature enough to reason through things. Obviously you are not. I have been on the side that suggests changes will occur, and if you look at the current dynamics, you'll see that they are occuring, albeit in an unknown fashion at this point.

The reason I'm not impressed isnt due to the engineering. I gave credit on that. I'm not impressed when I see paint coming out like water through a hose. Maybe that impresses you, but it doesn't me. It is impressive that it was done without electronics, but its still nothing new in the way it will impact our game.

[Target Practice]

Originally posted by AGD
All right, I am going to throw some water on this fire.

So if we make this and there is a huge waiting list are you going to be upset?

Are you going to tell me "If you don't get it out now, no one is going to buy it"?

If the first batch has issues, are you going to ask me what's taking so long?

How many of you are willing to overpay to get it right away and then we charge you to upgrade it with fixes later?

Will you compare it to your 'fill in the blank' electro and tell us your battery powered gizmo is still better?

When cheater boards are made legal the same way all the other cheats in paintball have evolved, will you dump this?


This is my reality, your comments?

AGD

1) "Good things come to those who wait." Hell, I waited four years to get my first 'Mag.

2) See point 1.

3) See point 2.

4) No thanks, I'll wait till the bugs are ironed out. (Didn't feel like saying "See point..." again.)

5) I don't own an electro, and I never will.

6) Not a chance.

Hope this helps, Tom

[Chowee21]

OMG

I want one S SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scircal]

I'll pretend you didn't attack me personally.

No need to pretend. I didn't attack you personally. I didn't call you fat. I didn't call you stupid. I didn't imply you were immature or disparage your mental capcity, both of which you did (which could be seen as indicative of your own level of maturity). I did attack your ideas as irrational. Completely different from attacking you personally. But you know that, being so mature.

I've never proposed a set cap, muchless with the number of 13.

Okay, I was unfair about you pushing for a specific cap. You weren't consistent about that, jumping from 14 to 17 bps. But you certainly did both explicitly and implicitly propose a cap. As in this quote:

I do not feel like a reasonable bps cap interferes with the style of the game played today. It will, however, help keep injuries low in the future.

Like I've said all along, this is as much to do with forward planning as it has to do with anything. You must consider what is out there and past trends and see that the ROF will keep going up. Cap it now to a reasonable level before its too late.

in this thread .

So don't act like I'm coming out of left field. In a number of posts, you pointed to the fact that electronics were the main thing pushing bps higher, along with bounce and RTs. In fact, you said:

Sure its doable, assuming we're picking an arbitrary number in the 15-17 range. Take away illegal bounces and RT's and there isn't a mechanical that will get that high.

Well you've got a mech here, without reactivity, that reaches and could surpass that range. I'd bet it's also possible to engineer a mech even higher.

I have been on the side that suggests changes will occur, and if you look at the current dynamics, you'll see that they are occuring, albeit in an unknown fashion at this point.

Well, I don't know a side that doesn't think change is occurring. That's a pretty empty statement.

The reason I'm not impressed isnt due to the engineering. I gave credit on that. I'm not impressed when I see paint coming out like water through a hose. Maybe that impresses you, but it doesn't me. It is impressive that it was done without electronics, but its still nothing new in the way it will impact our game.

So which is it? Are you impressed or unimpressed? Because if I remember correctly you said you were "thoroughly unimpressed." And you said that was your reaction because you aren't impressed by a fast shooting gun. Fine. But the point of these "googly eyed [sic] posts here" (as you so condescendingly put it) isn't that it's some marker shooting 16 bps, but a mechanical one with a trigger system designed to help it shoot fast without relying on the trigger's sweet spot. Yes, I've seen other guns shoot this fast or faster. But as you noted, that isn't what is necessarily impressive here.

Like I said, I'm sure the trigger could be worked to pass the various tests that electros with low debounce settings could not. And it doesn't use software to add shots. That's perfectly within the one pull, one shot, semi-auto rule and it shouldn't be outlawed simply because it shoots more than some people think is necessary.

[Brophog]

I'm only going to briefly comment, and then I suggest if we want to take this further we move it to another post or private.

Your missing most of my point here, if not all of it. At the time I made the comment about mechanicals not hitting these speeds without RT's, I was correct, as this was not (and still is not) out yet.

The point I am making in this thread is that before you all sell your souls for one of these, you should let some of the environmental conditions calm down a bit. Between the SP suits and the various rule changes, its very hard to say what will happen. It could easily be the case that this technology is not allowed, as I have stated. On the flipside, it could be that no one ever settles on a legit way to use electros, and we all wind up shooting markers with pneumatic triggers. I was just presenting one side of it. I feel that it is only right in this environment to warn the mob mentality of these sorts of things.

And yes, you did specifically attack me. You went after my entire post history, and tried to take what I was saying out of context. I did not have a hidden agenda in my posts, nor was I trying to deliberately make this into another speed argument. I've never been against any specific marker. My posts on this subject in the past have been for the greater good of paintball. Many feel that the current environment is bad, and I am far from alone in that aspect.

I'm sorry that I'm not impressed at seeing this water hose. Its great that its a mechanical, and in that, it is very neat. Over all though, its hard to get impressed by sheer speed anymore, especially when seen in a quality video like this.

There is a difference between being impressed with the overall concept and the products function. A marker that shoots 16 bps does not impress me. The fact that they did it in a way largely not done before does.