Is K2/WGP the next Smart Parts?

[Pickle]

Tom, I wish you all the luck in surviving. I wished I could contribute more to the solution and say the right words that will change things around. It will be very disappointing to see your company be forced out because of all this.

Ditto. I have been playing for about 15 years now and I have seen firsthand how money and greed have destroyed this sport of "honor". Live by the sword die by the sword, I don't plan to buy any WGP products and have not bought any SP products. Why? Because I support the small guy, the brick and mortar stores...and as often as I possibly can I buy from them. I also have a ULE in the pipeline as we speak.

p.s. Tom please get rid of that bannana man . All I keep thinking is "this is not pbn, this is not pbn."

[GT]

Tom,
I really dont understand the legal proceedings as well as the totality of the sistuation....

SO k2 is sueing people who make cockers parts, of which about 90% are meer cosmetic, and people who make cockerish bodies. Lets be honest there isnt much performance difference bewteen a stock 2k4 cocker and the badest most expensive mech cocker, performance wise. It sounds like to me that K2 wants to be the only maker of autococker markers, perfectly fine with me they OWN the rights to the gun. If I am not mistaken AGD didnt take to kindly to a certian company making mag knock offs.

just walked away from an accessory guy who got notice. The thing is I really dont think the guy I talked to knew or really cared who was getting sued. He expressed the fact they could now handle all the products themselves and was tired of all these guys eating away at them.

I am sorry but I just dont buy this. Not saying your a lier, I am saying that K2 may not have any legal recourse for aftermarket parts. Take a look at the aftermarket for cars or even computers.



Lastly, As a consumer I dont see the list of SP related companies I think that the rabbit whole is now so deep that it is getting increasingly more diffuclt to buy from such companies.



Here is a A few comments I posted in the AKA forum:

I was under the impression that companies could have some kind of pantent/inteluctial rights insurance, I get the feeling that most, if not all, paintball companies do not or cannot afford this coverage. My guess, and its a big one, that in the buisness world if you recieve a letter on your desk about compyright/patent/trademark issues you would just forward it to your insurance/council and they would take care of it. Hell it could be tied up in court for years but it wouldnt cost you a dime since you were insured(directly).



p.s. there are so many sides to this issue that we could easly end up writing a books worht of text. Tom, if you can break away, come down to the next AO meet here in TX, I would love to pick your brain. I am sure you are able to be alittle more candid in person.

jason

[Lohman446]

I may be wrong in some notes, and right in others - look at this concern.

Barrels - do you ever see barrels for Impulses, Shockers, etc. not made by SP - no, because SP has a proprietry threading for instance.

Cocker barrels also have a "cocker" proprietry threading. I do not know what this threading is, most threading on nuts and bolts are referred to in a different format - like 10mm X 1.25 pitch, understand that is a small size, but I eventually see having to refer to the cocker threading as 3/4 find thread - or whatever it actually is. What if it isn't a easily defined one, what if we have to start paying K2 just to make a barrel referred to as having "cocker" threadings. Or feednecks, or detents... or whatever.

When you get into arguing trade dress you are generally stretching, its meant as an annoyance factor, but if you cannot afford to fight it sometimes you loose.

The industry is getting out of hand, with lawsuits flying around you have stalled innovation. The happiness that I keep in mind is that my e-mag, or my RT mag is still better than I can be, so I'm happy with them.

You will not see an innovation in loaders next unless it comes from Oddyssey, Ricochet, Viewloader, or someone willing to risk it. And why improve if you own the market? We may never see the improvements.

You may never see a "better" paintball - I hope now that TK owns "perfectly round paintballs" and can sue anyoen else that looks round for trade dress issues because they are not round.

This is a rant, but here you have honest, innovative companies either hiding and hoping they have the patents to hang on (AGD), being forced backwards in business (AKA), being forced to compete on unfair terms (ICD), allow themselves to be bought out by a company that can protect them (WGP), or allying themselves with a large company (SP, NPS, Dye). We have hit a problem in paintball, innovation has been hampered and put in the hands of those not only daring enough to try to make something, but willing to be sued over it and fight it out in court - which is likely more expensive than developing in the first place.

Tom, you have asked us where we vote - let me put it this way. You have my vote, my markers come from AGD.

Now you have a problem, tell me where the rest of my equipment comes from.

My tanks come from Crossfire, a smaller company based in Battle Creek MI, I have seen that factory.
My paint comes from Kick'n... another smaller company.

You get the point, AGD is not going to supply me with everything - it would be helpful to see a list of those companies that work on the "old principles" - but we need to know who they are and who they are not.

In my opinion, knowing nothing of the company and its financial standings, etc. I am of the impression that AGD main source of income is likely not the recreational/tournament paintball scene, but may be in its military and theatrics productions. Its time to see a super gun, a gun that harks back to the days of cooperation, a gun that harks back to the "glory" days of the sport. A conglomeration of sorts - AGD and WDP? AGD and Kingman? Perhaps its time for those who have not surrendered th fight to start working together, and see us through the times we are in now.

[coolcatpete]

Man I just bought a cocker too. Oh well.
Pete

[252]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140793

[coolcatpete]

Threads merged for continuity.

AGD

here 252

[teufelhunden]

Someone said it somewhere else... maybe Blacksheep on PBR.

Everybody wants paintball to get huge and Olympics and on TV... but they don't want what comes with the territory. These are big business tactics, and like it or not, your push to make paintball bigtime and mainstream has brought these business tactics about.

Go ahead and call WGP Nazis, and boycott them, it'll hurt them as much as it's hurting SP [releasing plenty of new products, can't fill their orders fast enough..]

Said that in one of the other threads about this.

Tom, the fact that you're talking about folding within a year is weak. You've got the hAir trigger/whatever else you're doing, which alone will be able to carry the company. I'd also bet that with minimal modding, it could be applied to other markers. Imagine a mech Spyder shooting that fast. AGD has survived the past few years, and you haven't been moving 500k 'Mags a year. I'm not extremely well versed in patents in paintball, but your product line is extremely unique, so I don't see much that you could get sued for.

Or you could roll over and die.

[trevorjk]

man this is just sad... either microsoft or apple... maybe macintosh... but if you want true perfomance you go to alienware and falcon studios but at a premium cost... thats the way i see it anyways and i for one will always get the performance before the crap and if a vote is what your looking for then you have mine... i will be one of the first in line for that hair mod if it ever comes out... hell i dont even buy off the interenet anymore just so i can support the local stores. hmm im just pissed and really cant use my brain right now Tom you cant give in you have thousands of people who are willing to help you and AGD well i sure hope so

[teufelhunden]

:tup: for computer ignorance.

Apple=Macintosh.

Microsoft makes software, Alienware and Falcon make computers...

[trevorjk]

:tup: for computer ignorance.

Apple=Macintosh.

Microsoft makes software, Alienware and Falcon make computers...

yeah i just noticed that after i posted... like i said to much going on for me to think straight but i sure hope it gets my point across?

[logamus]

so does this mean that ule bodies are going to be pulled off the shelves soon?

[Beemer]

No Quotes

How candid can you be? Sure some things you cant say but what dont we know that you can tell us??

I dont brouse other forums much so there is probably much I and others dont know. So can you be candid with what you can?

I've been voting with my dollars since the PMI Mask. All AGD All the time. Mags, FlatLine,Warp, only 1 thing not AGD, tanks are good for 10 yrs or so and even then all I have to replace is the tank. FlatLine, Only reg with a fail safe.[if it doesnt come back it will be a standard of the futrure] Gun Valve rated at 3000psi [another standard] Put up the facts and see whos at the top for safety.

Whats the big picture? Help me out with some of the politics. What about Safety issues.

I keep doing the math and AGD keeps comming out on top.


I said no quotes so this is from memory.

Its tuff coming from a point of truth and constantly getting knocked down.
I have 5000 post that say I Care.
It would be a new day for AGD if it was mec only.

Ya like how can 47 people form a committee for standards[ASTM] and then just disregard them. Whats up with that.

If youre gonna get called out, show your hand.
If you step aside make it a big step and make the difference you and I know you can.

I'll never forget playing a game with the Panther[thanks]

There will always be reserved parking for the Wizard.

[GoatBoy]

Said that in one of the other threads about this.

Tom, the fact that you're talking about folding within a year is weak. You've got the hAir trigger/whatever else you're doing, which alone will be able to carry the company. I'd also bet that with minimal modding, it could be applied to other markers. Imagine a mech Spyder shooting that fast. AGD has survived the past few years, and you haven't been moving 500k 'Mags a year. I'm not extremely well versed in patents in paintball, but your product line is extremely unique, so I don't see much that you could get sued for.

Or you could roll over and die.

This is what I am afraid of. I have this feeling that AGD will get cold feet and somehow manage to kill the hAir trigger. I've got this weird feeling about what's going on in the background. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would certainly be disappointing.

I really don't know what to say about the rest of Tom's post. I agree that people are voting with their dollars. All badgering aside, I feel that I can trust AGD is at least TRYING to do the right thing.

I wish people would be more responsible with their money, but it isn't going to happen. The world's full of people who cannot overcome the insurmountable obstacle of ... themselves. They're not going to figure it out. It's too much to ask that people think, make decisions, and act on them. "HELP ME DECIDE?" You're beyond help.


*sigh* here comes mister banana!

Ahh, happy again.

[thei3ug]

Post from Aaron Alexander on "Trade Dress" and the WGP vs. AKA suit...

Do not forget that trade dress only applies to non-functional ornamental parts, i.e. the back block is functional to the operation of the marker and was never covered by the trade dress laws, which WGP tried to claim was non-functional to the marker and therefore was covered under trade dress. Again trade dress covers look and feel of something, a good example has always been the curvy shape of the coke bottle, which by the way the coke bottle was first patented and then later trade-dressed. WGP tried to also bring in copyright and patents stuff but we quickly shut that down when in the paperwork we showed there was not patents, copyrights or trade dress protection of any kind, WGP jumped to another subject. Yes, the judge dismissed the case with prejudice (meaning they couldn't sue us again) because of jurisdiction but it was the only easy way for the judge to throw the case out. Now just recently Bud and Jeff have both recieved patents. Bud recieved a patent for (yes you won't believe this) a Low Pressure chamber for the cocker. (Again the patents office shows that it's not doing its job when the LPC was already covered under AKA patents) and Jeff got a patent on the hinge frame. This is also interesting since Palmer has been doing a hinge type frame on his guns for over ten years. Also it wasn't until recently that they actually filed for copyrights. Bud also has his name copyrighted as well as they tried to copyright Jeff's name.

Aaron

Really, the past 5 years I've seen everything I've enjoyed in paintball being taken away through underhandedness and jealousy.

[PsychoBaller]

I hate paintball politics... can't everyone just play paintball and get along?