Is K2/WGP the next Smart Parts?

[G3PB]

whatever happened to that autoresponse frame you dropped into a benchmark?
How do you think that mod might work with a ULT?

Trigger pull length was almost non-existent but it was too stiff by today's standards.....however, ask me again in a couple of weeks...I do have something in the fire based on that only with "assist".....

I had a couple years back but lost interest, but as soon as some parts arrive, I'll see what I can do with it again since I have renewed interest.

[Scott Hudnall]

I honestly think that AGD is positioned very nicely in the market at this time.....positioned to make a significant gain in market share, that is, with all the shtuff flying around from lawyers to the small innovators.

Let's face it...for us old timers.....the paintball high-end choice will never boil down to a choice between only 2 guns again (ie - automag and autococker) but the market has grown so tremendously in the past 5 years that a smaller market share could actually net more users of the product. And...if as indicated in an earlier post....the aftermarket manufacturers start leaning toward 'mag upgrades (bodies, frames, front grips, etc), then it will only help AGD.

It's going to be interesting to watch. I hope TK really puts his mind to developing the next AGD gun and/or next generation of 'mags, as well as upgrades such as the hAir trigger system. Could prove to be some really cool stuff.

Here's to the future

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

...DOWN WITH PSYCHO BALLISTICS, i got both of their fake cockers brand new and both broke within a day!

[GT]

Alright guys:


so here we are on page three and I have yet to see any actions items, wiskey tango foxtrot, what are we going to do. Thus far this is what I have found,

G3: is going to start making mag stuff
TK: will continue to make mag suff
AO: ***** and moan about how crappy the industry has gotten

Anyone see a problem with what AO is doing? AO this is going to be one of your final warnings: Do something now or face extinction.

[SlartyBartFast]

Anyone see a problem with what AO is doing? AO this is going to be one of your final warnings: Do something now or face extinction.

Honestly. Even if AGD disappeared, paintball would still be around.

What do you want players to do? In the Autococker case, all the MANUFACTURERS have to do is stop using the word Autococker in their product names.

Like I've already said. Just because a lawyer's letter tells you to stop, doesn't mean you have to. It's up to the manufacturers to get some backbone and put up a fight. To put up a fight, you don't always need lots of cash. Just putting up a minimal resistance to K2 or Smartparts would cost them a lot of money in lawyers fees.

[lopxtc]

One thing that gets me is that people are always saying that we need to voice our opinion through our pocketbooks ... in otherwords show your support for the little guy by buying their product over the big guys ...

Well here is where the problems lies for me, in paintball most (if not all) items that are involved are not consumable items. In other words you buy them once and you are done. So while I am in support of giving support to the little guy, it really is only good for a one shot deal ....

If you think about it allot of the high end aftermarket parts out there are great ... they work and they continue to work ... so once you have paid for it, your done. There is no buying the item multiple times. If anything some moving parts might wear out and you have to replace those, ala repair kits. Even then I dont see many people making aftermarket repair kits. Its typically one or two people for a given product. Not much support being shown there really as this consumable items are relatively cheap and can in many cases be bought from a bulk supplier (in case of o-rings, grease, screws, hoses, etc) ....

In many cases I can only think of a few consumable items that we use in this sport;
pods ....
lenses ....
paint ....
barrel swabs ....

All relatively cheap items and usually made by a ton of people (lenses being the only propriety (sp?) item up there) ... and in this case not the subject of a lawsuit.

Im willing to guess that the community is not full of people who buy a new marker ever few months or even years ... but by people who buy one marker and then work to upgrade it. In this situation you will eventually hit an apex ... you will not be able to go any further unless you buy a new marker. Many of the high end markers coming out now are not even needing aftermarket parts, heck AGD has been promoting out of the box and top of the line for some time.

This sport is not like any other sport with aftermarket parts (ie racing) that are full of consumable items .... its one thing to support a company by only using their tires, brake pads, spark plugs, etc .... those are items you know you will have to replace and choose an item becasue you like the brand ....

Someone tell me how in this support to continue to show support for the aftermarket maker when I really only do it once .... even given the number of players in the sport who would be making this one time sale.

I for one have no intention of buying another $1000+ marker just because I feel I need to support someone ....

Aaron

[ogre55]

People have been asking "So what now?" "How do we fix it?" "How do we make this right?"

The answer is that there is nothing to do.

As others have pointed out, if push came to shove, K2 has no case. They have no patent on the basic operation of the marker (that presumably still belongs to Benjamin Sheridan or their successors in interest) and if they tried to get one for the "auto cocking" aspect, Glenn Palmer has all but screamed that he would kick them where the sun don't shine.

All they have is trade dress, which, legally speaking is not all that much.

So if they have no case, what are they trying to do, you ask. They same thing that SP did. They use pressure to get people to enter into BS licensing contracts, which are still enforceable even if their patents are not.

Notice that now that SP is getting sued by WDP and that AGD is applying for patents on various aspects of electo-pneumic markers (I beleive AGD posted something about this a little while ago) SP is not so hot to go after everybody and their mother. Instead they get the licensing fees from all the suckers who signed on with them (DYE, NPS, etc.)

K2 is using the threat of litigation to get rid of as many competitors as it can before the fact that they have no legal leg to stand on becomes too obvious to ignore. Its a win/win situation for them.

So perhaps there is something that you can do after all. Spread the word that K2 is full of hot air.


Ogre

[MagRipper214]

i cannot stand this bull****. it ruins the ****ing sport, makes me sick. i just wish everyone would stfu and stop making their guns for the money, and make their guns just to have cool guns for everyone. like millions of other people have said, innovation is what makes the sport grow, companies are sueing left and right now, the ICE Epic guy just sued Jack Rice over the Alien, because it uses a ram operated trap door, which is only somewhat similar to his design. i hate all this crap about "blah you stole my idea im going to sue your balls off" sometimes i consider quitting paintball because of all this arguing and bickering bull**** that goes on all the time, on every forum, on every field, everywhere. Companies like WGP and SP are ruining our sport that we love, that we are so dedicated to we spend every ounce of time reading every new little thing that happens or comes out, and daydreaming all day about when the next time your going to play is. thats what paintball is about. its everything, its fun and exciting, competitive, its the biggest rush ever, and people are ruining it for me and many other. i just wish it would stop

[DK1]

UPDATE...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1088188799

DK1

[SlartyBartFast]

UPDATE...

Very cool. Hope they sent an apropraitely worded letter to K2 and the lawyers.

[rabidchihauhau]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.

[Lohman446]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.

First I want to know what Chinese "cocker" we are discussing, please tell me its not the DragunFly that wished it could have competed with a 'cocker want to be thing that took a VERY small segment of the market. Besides AMP is not Chinese, and I am certain the people on this board that received cease and desist letters for the parts they produced are not producing them in China.

As for the above happening - it did in one form in the British Colonial, guess who won on that one - though I will grant it was not Chinese competition?

IF it happened, if there was a Chinese version made to compete with the automag maybe its right. What I am unhappy with K2 and SP over though does not involve Chinese competition, in fact Im pretty certain SP has stayed away from the major Asian manufacturer Kingman.

[DK1]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.

If AGD were the ones to acutally invent the system, I would have no problem with it. If AGD were to take a design that wasn't theirs, make it popular, then try to claim that they have protection of the design based on a trademark on the name of said product... then yes, I'd have a problem with that.

DK1

[SlartyBartFast]

First I want to know what Chinese "cocker" we are discussing

The "Chinese Cocker" argument is a red herring. It doesn't particularily matter where in the world the competition is coming from and ALL cockers were produced in China anyways (or at least all bodies were/are). Part of the deal WGP had for the body production is that the producers could sell complete guns to any other market except the US.

If a company owns a patent and the basis of the patent is just, I don't think anyone would bellyache over its enforcement.

But if the patent is frivolous (use of standard compenents, switches, and batteries) or foundless (unfounded vague and frivolous cease and desist lawyers letters), then I think everyone should make as much noise in protest as possible.

[Linkwarner]

At my field the other day, we were discussing this topic, and came to the plain and simple conclusion... Smart Parts = Satans Pants. no not really, but we thought what would happen if Kingman took this route of sueing all of these people, Kingman would be extremely rich, they would also be able to sue WGP, for the T-Ranger. just a thought..