Is K2/WGP the next Smart Parts?

[slasherdan]

Autococker threads ...

AGD will most likely get hit for having on their stat sheet for the RT ULE ... and all because it is worder as such "uses Autococker threads" ....

I wonder what kind of suit they would have if Tom were the change it to:
"uses a thread count that can be found on other top market markers."

That way there is no name listed. Or patent the thread count and then sue WGP ...

[thei3ug]

[manike]

I'm thinking in future all guns I work on will have 'Standard' threading.

Now if that just happens to fit barrels made with '15/16"-20 threads' then wouldn't we all be lucky?

You know Bud never made a print of what Autococker threads are... We should do a print of 'Standard threads' and copyright it, then release it for general use. I'd put a few less threads on it that Bud does, and give some nice set dimensions...

[G3PB]

I came home from DDAY to find a letter from K2's attorneys. It was a cease and desist order to stop selling products that bear the name "AutoCocker", "MiniCocker", and even "Cocker". Several Months ago, Jeremy at Jackal Machine received an email from WGP telling him he could not use any of those names in any of his product descriptions....now, as a dealer, they are telling me the same thing. Seems it causes mass consumer confusion.
Jeremy at Jackal is now looking into making his design of the 90 degree frame, similar to those he makes for the "AC", and the Impulse (SP hasn't threatened us yet.

Anyway, to make a longer story short, I told Tom about it and he said" Make **** for the Mag, I won't sure you, do whatever you want."....so, since we both (Jackal and I) have really missed the Mag end of things, look forward to a future expansion.

I also have to say, Tom gave Jeremy a couple of slug bodies to mill on, he gave me an X-Valve, ULE trigger, and a couple of level 10 kits....so, Tom's the man. Of all the guns I've owned, I still have my Mag from '95 although there is nothing left of how it started. I never chopped or broke paint in it, I just never liked the triggers that were available....but, the times have changed

[trevorjk]

similar to those he makes for the "AC"

hrm are we talking autococker or air conditioning? see now im confused

[GT]

I'm thinking in future all guns I work on will have 'Standard' threading.
...

Simon in all honest I am not sure why this hasnt happend yet. It would be really nice if we had indsutry wide standards, ISO, ANSI. Simply if yu are going to build a 'gun this is what you need:

Cocker barrel threads
AKA vertfeed threads
cocker or angel detents


IF the industry were alittle more standradized our local shops could carry less overhead in random barrels and other parts, and spend more of their cash flow on other products.

(Jackal and I) have really missed the Mag end of things, look forward to a future expansion.

O wow,
You guys do some incredible work, and equally wonderfull customer service keep us posted here on AO.



I need help from the Industry guys
We, as consumers, need to know which companies to support and which to not support. So if there is anyway, through a few degreas of seperation, pass a list to a member here on AO for posting purposes. A memeber could clearly post whom to buy from to support the cause, without putting anyones job/livelyhood in jerpordy.

gt

[G3PB]

They cannot stop someone from making parts or bodies. Notice what Bud said, something to the effect that selling products represented as "Autococker" will be dealt with. Most all manufacturers received notice and fixed their problems before K2 bought out Bud. Jackal Machine just changed all the "AuctoCocker" listing to "AC". as did MacDev and others. Now it seems they are going after the stores that use those terms on other than WGP manufactured goods....we will just have to change our listings from "AutoCocker" to AC also.

Tippman sold for what I heard was 75 million to the Summit Group, a non-paintball conglomerate made up of private investors...like K2, they could care less about what they make so long as they make money......Seems to me that AGD is the only company that has any thoughts for the little guy, the player, or anyone else these days. If it keeps on this way, in a few years, I hope the politicians do manage to ban it all so that these companies will loose out and realize they cut their own throats....screw 'em.....

[openboater]

[G3PB]

[QUOTE=spleefstylez] They should buy WGP bodies anyways.
QUOTE]



Why? The last time I had 12 WGP bodies in here, none of them miked out the same. Yes, you can build a good gun from one, I'm not saying that, but there is a very wide birth in fit these days. At DDAY, there was an AIM built that Jeremy's bolt would not even attempt to slide into the bolt channel.....any of them can usually be built into decent guns, but to me, as an old guy that has an understanding of old-fashioned quality - meaning quality above profit, there is no comparrison....

And, since WGP seems to be going the way of Smart Parts, why would I wish to help them screw us as a whole.....I don't carry anything from SP on principle, not smart from a business end, but I'd rather take the loss anyday.

[thei3ug]

To expound on your point, the "wide berth" isn't just "these days," at any point in their manufacture of bodies, WGP always had wide tolerances. The fact that all of a sudden WGP came out with marketing "quality WGP bodies" over "cheap copies" is funny. Or it was, until people believed it.

cocker or angel detents

I'm sorry, but the correct term is "cooper-T detente."
Problem. Different bodies are different sizes. Not easy to just say "ok, let's all use this ball detente now."

[G3PB]

The really sad thing is is that the only thing Bud came up with is the name "AutoCocker". He certainly did not invent the autococking gun and he certainly did not invent the Sheridan that his original gun was based on.

Unfortunately, there are some cheap junk bodies out there and WGP's are a little better...but, what will happen when they're made in China ? I'm going back to Mags.

[slasherdan]

Well I'm ahead of you!!

Already gone MAG ... But I'm also waiting for my Palmer's to come back to me!!!

I was a little concerned about the Action Markers cutting their Illusion, and then I remembered that I have a Houndstooth and a Hurricane coming my way.

Now all I have to do it pick up my Warp Feed from AGD HQ down the street and my RT will be complete until the new trigger comes out.

[Muzikman]

[SlartyBartFast]

I came home from DDAY to find a letter from K2's attorneys. It was a cease and desist order to stop selling products that bear the name "AutoCocker", "MiniCocker", and even "Cocker". Several Months ago, Jeremy at Jackal Machine received an email from WGP telling him he could not use any of those names in any of his product descriptions....now, as a dealer, they are telling me the same thing. Seems it causes mass consumer confusion.

Seems reasonable to me. If you make after market parts, give them a name based on your own image and don't sponge off the image created by the OEM. Same as any other industry.

The owner of the trademark/name can then capitalise on its value.

Nothing stops aftermarket parts from listing what they are compatible with or what they install on. It's the difference between having "AutoCocker Swing Frame" on the top of the packaging or some name with "fits AutoCocker(tm) paintball marker" somewhere else.

In the first case, the product is capitalising on the trademarked name for promotion. In the second, it is the product's own name that is being used for promotion and the packaging simply states the fact it installs on AutoCockers.

As for threading and detents, saying Angel feed neck or AutoCocker barrel threading is incorrect anyways. Both are standard screw threads. It would be more accurate and correct to say AutoCocker(tm) compatible barrel threading. Can't be sued for that. It's a fact.

But if you say ULE Mags have AutoCocker threading, the lawyers CAN make a case that that implies the participation and/or blessing of the AutoCocker makers/trademark holders.

If you play fast and loose with either the AGD logo, name, or Automag/RT/RTPro/EMag names I'm sure Tom would be certain to look closely to ensure that no AGD participation or endorsement is even remotely implied unless explicit rights were given.

As for rolling over after a vague lawyers letter, well that's just lame. Just send a letter back saying you'll be happy to comply with their intellectual property rights as soon as they provide you with an exact list of which rights they feel you are contravening and how exactly you are contravening them.

[GT]

Anyone wanna work on this list?

Jason,
that is what I am talking about. Making a list, I am sure its not very long, of retailers as well as product lines that are still in it for the players. Problem is I would like input from guys that are close to the source, TK and Manike to name a few. Problem is I dont want to drag those guys into any potential litigation.

Kinda why I wanted to just get a few emails (I wouldnt use anyones name) from people and post it on AO and PBN. Some people will listen, some will think I am crazy, the difference is OUR voice will be heard.

jb