Lat Ion post from me.... I Swear

[bound for glory]

my devilmag will kick that ions @ss off this planet

[nippinout]

You know this because?

You've measured internal tolerances, or seen the tolerance specifications from the manufacturer?

You have torture tested this and various other markers?

You have a background in mechaical engineering, electronics, or pneumatics?

You have used this, and other markers, long term enough to test there reliability?

The fact of the matter is, very few people can say yes to these questions. RRFireblade has indicated to me that he beleived that the Ion does nto appear to use as high end components and may be short lived. I would argue that it is simplistic in nature, repairs and maintenance are, and as such we will be seeing them for years. However, he has much more knowledge than I do in the area and I defer to the point that he may very well be right. That being said, what evidence do you have to support the conclusion you state as so obvious fact?

It isn't that hard to deduce that the tolerancing are not very tight. Why? Good tolerances cost money. This loose tolerancing is not necesarily a bad thing. Look at the Spyder. You could make a Spyder body out of JB Weld and it would shoot.

It's a matter of economics. It's tolerancing is not very high. That is a fact.

[Jakedubbleya]

it may shot fast, but so do e spysers!

e-spyders are also inefficient, poorly regulated (if regulated at all), and shoot ~850 psi.
No such issues with ions.

besides,
put some high quality AKA internals in your espyder, tune the pressure to fix the inefficiency using a decent regulator, throw an eye in there, and youve got a reliable gun that can effectively shoot as well as any other (trigger frame is an iffy factor tho).

comparing stock spyders to ions is somewhat irresponcible.

[FallNAngel]

e-spyders are also inefficient

The Ion isn't exactly very efficient either...

poorly regulated (if regulated at all), and shoot ~850 psi.

Spyders often aren't regulated... you can swap out some springs and drop on a reg and bring the pressure down though. Playing with the regs and pressure should yield pretty good results with both kick and efficiency.

[txaggie08]

It isn't that hard to deduce that the tolerancing are not very tight. Why? Good tolerances cost money. This loose tolerancing is not necesarily a bad thing. Look at the Spyder. You could make a Spyder body out of JB Weld and it would shoot.

It's a matter of economics. It's tolerancing is not very high. That is a fact.

not particualrly. especialy with the minimilistic aproach to mahcining smart parts took. high tolerances on SOME guns cost big money, but not when there is very little in house machining that has to go on to get the gun built. the whole point of th ion is not thats its cheaply made, its built using less expensive processes and components. that doesnt mean its poorly manufactured, it just meens its simple (sometime the KISS principle works) while i personaly like my mag better, i beleive th ION will compete with it and any other gun on the market(it seems as fast as any others i have ever seen especialy with the board capped so low)

tolerances are an easy thing for people to gripe about, but until you can offer proof of said lowered tolerances, please dont use them in deductive reasoning. I would be interested to see smart parts release there manufacturing tolerances to put this myth to rest or validate it. maybe someone could take a sampling of a few hundred ions measurments with calipers and enlighten us on the consistency?

[Jakedubbleya]

The Ion isn't exactly very efficient either...
Spyders often aren't regulated... you can swap out some springs and drop on a reg and bring the pressure down though. Playing with the regs and pressure should yield pretty good results with both kick and efficiency.

what i said... lol

ions arent exactly ineffecient tho, rather acceptable imo, and ive been spoiled by vikings:)

[nippinout]

e-spyders are also inefficient, poorly regulated (if regulated at all), and shoot ~850 psi.
No such issues with ions.

besides,
put some high quality AKA internals in your espyder, tune the pressure to fix the inefficiency using a decent regulator, throw an eye in there, and youve got a reliable gun that can effectively shoot as well as any other (trigger frame is an iffy factor tho).

comparing stock spyders to ions is somewhat irresponcible.

850 psi is NOT a problem!

Spyders are quite efficient. I wouldn't categorize them as inefficient at all. Their valves act like a regulator. Think about it. The valve stem has a spring and piston face that opens when pressure is applied, and shuts when biased by the spring when the pressure is removed.

Tolerancing issues do not go away with minimalist designs and in-house production does not remove the issues associated with tight tolerances.

Tooling, quality control and analysis, and a skilled machinist/operator costs money. Even if this is all in-house.

Sampling Ions for tolerancing isn't needed to know that the tolernacing is not tight. This does not mean that it is a bad gun. This gun is meant to be cheap. Ask anybody who's done any sort of work pricing, paying, or doing machine work. Tolerancing costs money no matter what 'less expensive process' is used. Spinning a lump of metal is cheaper than milling crazy 5-axis stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that +/- .0001" is more expensive than +/- 1". They can go crazy loose with the OD of the body, just hammer that body on, or wrap some duct tape on it. I am curious to the o-rings' diametrical clearance used on the Ion.

[Enemy]

regardless its still a great gun!! fast as all get out and a pretty decent eye system! bye anyway is it a replacement for 1000 gun! not at all but it gets the job done well enough to compete!!

[txaggie08]

850 psi is NOT a problem!

Spyders are quite efficient. I wouldn't categorize them as inefficient at all. Their valves act like a regulator. Think about it. The valve stem has a spring and piston face that opens when pressure is applied, and shuts when biased by the spring when the pressure is removed.

Tolerancing issues do not go away with minimalist designs and in-house production does not remove the issues associated with tight tolerances.

Tooling, quality control and analysis, and a skilled machinist/operator costs money. Even if this is all in-house.

Sampling Ions for tolerancing isn't needed to know that the tolernacing is not tight. This does not mean that it is a bad gun. This gun is meant to be cheap. Ask anybody who's done any sort of work pricing, paying, or doing machine work. Tolerancing costs money no matter what 'less expensive process' is used. Spinning a lump of metal is cheaper than milling crazy 5-axis stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that +/- .0001" is more expensive than +/- 1". They can go crazy loose with the OD of the body, just hammer that body on, or wrap some duct tape on it. I am curious to the o-rings' diametrical clearance used on the Ion.

Thanks ive done my share of machine work, my uncle was a proffesional machinist for texaco until he retired. I know a little bit......

with a ROUND design like the ions, boring is probably the prefered method of machining for most parts. im sorry but even a mechanical machine can produce high quality with quality boring bits. Gaining a higher tolerance level on a fixed lathe fixed bit system is not difficult, nor would it cost enough to validate a price cut. i still await tolerance specs from the manufacturer, because in reality, if they have let tolerances fall with the minimilistic machine work required in these guns, there idiotic(and its smart parts so.....). its not a valid place to cut prices with this design. the main cut in price on these gun is the elimination of the need for a 5axis machine using multiple bits and requiring more precision on the machinist part(as well as individualized supervision. the simplicity of design allows more automation with less supervision, while maintaining necessary quality control levels. while possibly not as durable of a design owing to the externilization of things like the micro line, its a HUGE price drop, and in reality the maintenance on these guns may still not justify buying the "better quality" markers, owing to the maintenance those guns themselves require.

The ion is the model T of paintball. its a good, fast(i know not a original t trait but you understand my meaning), reliable gun, thats mass produced so its cheaper, but at the same time well made and with enough features for 85% of the world to be happy with. It will do, i beleive, the same thing to the ultra elitist "tournament scene" what the model T did to the motor car world when it went into production. it will bring the sport back into the reach of the common player. I miss the time before the angels and shockers got big, and everyone was on a fairly even footing with guns. My hope is that we may see a swing back that direction(ive already seen it in older players going back to pumps and mech's and havin fun :))


On the other hand, it may turn out that they start falling apart after a year of use, and become so much worthless garbage.

just my two cents, im shure ill be told by the "wiser" people im wrong. Oh well

[oldsoldier]

Hey, did anyone notice the irony of the Ion? They hyped the Nerve for 2 years, and it was crap. They release an inexpensive marker, and the whole world of PB is on its ear.
Having some experience with SP, particularly their (lack of) customer service, I personally wouldnt get one, based on CS alone. That being said, I think its a good idea that they are marketing decent low end guns, so beginning players will at least have a fighting chance against someone shooting a higher end gun.


I'd still take my timmy over anything else though.

[txaggie08]

it definetly is a good concept. illd like to see most of the big manufacturers come out with something like that. what i dont understand is why kingman never released a fully ep gun for cheap........you can build a timmy in a spyder body out of scrap parts for 300 without trying hard(i need a ram sleeve and the poppit assembly if anyone has one btw)all you need is that a thirty dollar solenoid, a cheap lpr(what probably five bucks for them to make) and a basic reg(again maybe ten to fifteen for a simple one) and the bugger would even run of CO2 (thats them buying it not me hehehehehehe). granted the quality wouldnt be as high, but the tolerances on the timmy dont HAVE to be(they are on any bob long guns i know)much higher than the spyders. shurely the concept isnt patented, there are several ep guns that work the same way i beleive. if they ever did, i think it would put a BAD crimp in timmy sales, especialy since they could set it up to take timmy parts.....

[Lohman446]

You know, I have heard a lot about this marker being produced on the cheap and they HAD to cut corners to do it so tolerances MUST be loose... I think we may me overstating how much one had to cut costs to produce a marker this cheap. I mean PMI produces and sells markers, with anno, profitably at a touch over $100

How much does it cost to produce a Shocker/DM4 if one cuts out the milling and anno? I think we have lost the idea of the concept that the high end guns that "cost so much more to make" may just have stupid high mark up from the manufacturer

[yakitori]

my devilmag will kick that ions @ss off this planet

do you feel the need to brag that you have a 900 dollar marker. I have a viking that will kick your devil mags arse of this planet, but I dont go in the devilmag post and say it. Put your devil mag against three ions, Id take three ions over a devilmag. But thats me. simply because its still a mag, and a sear tripper.

I dont see how the Ion is supposedly made of low quality parts. I mean, its aluminum like all other markers. I find repairing guns easy. Usually a leak is just from a seal that needs to be replaced. I can do that in 5 minutes. If it is properly maintained and lubed, there shouldnt be anymore wear than any other guns.

[Twiek]

I dont see how the Ion is supposedly made of low quality parts. I mean, its aluminum like all other markers. I find repairing guns easy. Usually a leak is just from a seal that needs to be replaced. I can do that in 5 minutes. If it is properly maintained and lubed, there shouldnt be anymore wear than any other guns.

It's probably that non-resin encapsulated-ness that'll cause it to fail first... or perhaps the 2000 series (but still annoed) aluminum

[Lohman446]

Its the lack of tolerances it MUST have...

I have heard it from several people now... apparently none of them have the ability to measure tolerances or the knowledge to know what they are. They just MUST be, cause its not $1000 or something.