Lat Ion post from me.... I Swear

[Twiek]

Its the lack of tolerances it MUST have...

I have heard it from several people now... apparently none of them have the ability to measure tolerances or the knowledge to know what they are. They just MUST be, cause its not $1000 or something.

I know my calipers aren't extremely precise, but I measured a consistant 0.001" difference between each inner and outer diameter set of the internals. That's good enough for me.

[fire1811]

thats a nice vid and i dont know how ppl are bashing this gun, it just does not make sence to bash it.

its actually quite simple.
people bash it because they have to try and justify there $1000 gun that does damn near the same thing as a $300 gun.

are there guns better made then the ion? definatly yes.
are the better/more expensive guns worth the price difference? NO! that of course is just my opinion.

[93civiccpe]

Can we end this once and for all?? This is getting worse than the tired mag vs. cocker debates. Maybe this will help:

How many of you have ever been shot in a local field by a spyder/tippman, or other low end gun??



If you don't like the gun then don't buy it. I think they are good for the price but I have no intentions of buying one, I already have a nice gun. I don't hear people saying that the Ion is the best gun out, because that claim would be rediculous. Their claim is that it is competitive. Technically any gun that can shoot paintball is competitive if put in the right hands. With it's e-trigger and ramping it can be a fun marker to play. Can it stand up in a speedball game?? I would assume so after seeing a few pro teams switch to them. No one is saying it is the best gun in paintball, just that it can compete.

[yakitori]

I concur w/ the above. Can anyone griping about the ion provide any tolerance figures? Can anyone that gripes even explain how it is disassembled w/o looking for instructions.

I think everyone feels the need to discredit the other persons gun no matter what it is, and say that theirs is better. Dont get me wrong though. My viking shoots better than my Ion, but its also a lot more expensive. I dont complain to justify the price of my viking. I think the Ion makes a great backup.

[Paintchucker]

I got new ION grips !!!

It isn't that hard to deduce that the tolerancing are not very tight. Why? Good tolerances cost money. This loose tolerancing is not necesarily a bad thing. Look at the Spyder. You could make a Spyder body out of JB Weld and it would shoot.

It's a matter of economics. It's tolerancing is not very high. That is a fact.

Actually tolerances are arguable on the ION... with the Banjo Bolts (remember the original AGD RT???), the body of the gun/internals is completely disconnected from the air supply and the trigger mechanism... You can pull the gun apart into 3 pieces and still make it fire. But the tolerances are tight enough that the difference in the stock body with integrated bodyrail(to use mag terms) is significantly thinner than my 1/4" plexiglass body rail and the trigger will have to be adjusted to get the gun to fire again...

I concur w/ the above. Can anyone griping about the ion provide any tolerance figures? Can anyone that gripes even explain how it is disassembled w/o looking for instructions.

I think everyone feels the need to discredit the other persons gun no matter what it is, and say that theirs is better. Dont get me wrong though. My viking shoots better than my Ion, but its also a lot more expensive. I dont complain to justify the price of my viking. I think the Ion makes a great backup.

I have been having fun making lots of new ION grips! Casting resin is a blast !!! The ION is a blast !!! I still love my mags... All 3 of them...


Oh, I'm sorry, you said "Gripes" not "Grips"... sorry, my bad ...

[txaggie08]

I have been having fun making lots of new ION grips! Casting resin is a blast !!! The ION is a blast !!! I still love my mags... All 3 of them...


Oh, I'm sorry, you said "Gripes" not "Grips"... sorry, my bad ...

heheheheheh nice......

and 93civic, i like cocker versus mag debate there WAY more entertaining then these are. they get personal

[MadPSIence]

well, the airsmith here, and store owners opinion on the ION is this.

It's a fast gun, 17bps is quick. It's acceptable in efficiency.. Okay so what? Yes 300 is a great price, if it were solid out of the box but there's a number of things that I was told, and have read that are just crap.

1. Barrel
2. Regulator <- horid
3. Feedneck

That's a pretty sum. Put that on a gun that is a hassle to take apart, accept you'll fall for the hype and start buying 100+ dollar body kits for it.. you're working your way up into the 500 dollar range.

I can't comment on the tolerances of an ION having no knowledge of them. That we will see. But keep in mind... 300 dollars is 300 dollars. It is not comparable to a 900 dollar gun. Smart Parts, can't just take a loss like that.

Besides, if the gun was made by Diablo or someone... none of this hype would exist even if the numbers matched. It's kind of sick how many people out there only have the motive to support the gun based on brand... add those that support it based on it's extreme look and funky name.. then there's the people who actually support it for it's value which is present but still questionable in terms of quality.

Don't flame me though.. I almost bought an Ion yesterday but opted out due to the current issues and lack of a quick fix for the regulator. Aside from that it looks like a childs toy but that's opinion. Right now my money is being saved for a Vision Shocker.. which really is leagues ahead of an Ion in both quality, speed and function. More money? yes. Worth it? yes.

I mean if you even do some reading of the reviews of the Ion there are some consistancies. Cheap bottomline, bad stock barrel, unforgiving trigger, drop off at high ROF, poor disassembly, exposed solenoid coil, LOUD (video proof... louder than my mag), one piece 45 frame and asa ugh..

these aren't instances.. there are consistancies. Hype is called hype because it works!

[Lohman446]

I bought my Ion expecting to replace the barrel, the reg, and the feedneck immediatly. As I use cut Halos to the CCM no-pro there really was no option there and I had one before I even had the marker.

I expected the reg to suck, so I ordered a max-flo tank with the idea of gutting the regulator. The reg is good +/-3 and the reg is back at SP having a leak fixed so I use a screw in. The Max-flo will likely end up on my DevilMag when it gets here.

I expected the barrel to suck and ordered a back for my freak kit. I use the stock barrel and it does just fine IMO. But, I have never been a "sniper" so I guess its not an issue to me.

I did have issues, with fittings in the marker (the internal line fittings) leaking, which I had to repair and as always when I called SP they explained how this, like every other QC or lack thereof issue, was not there fault. PS - this is the thing that annoys me most about SP, a lack of saying, might have been our fault, yes we will send you that. It annoys me, to me it is horrible customer service (considering in the past year I have purchased a max-flo tank, three shockers, and an ion for my own personal use I think it sucks), and should be addressed. Considering the dealer I have purchased them through has spent a large sum of money with SP, and I have personally, I expected better CS. I choose to live with it though...

I don't "love" the trigger on the Ion, but in game it works great for me. So I guess there is no complaint there. I have been considering upgrading it, but don't want to get in the position of having a $800 Ion through upgrades (ok, thats exagerated, but I think you know what I mean).

[shartley]

[fire1811]

the funny thing is that if AGD would have came out with this gun, it would have been the best thing in years, the tolerances would have been +/- .0000000000001, it would have started another "mag revolution", and everyone on AO would be getting it.

I love my mags but some of you people need to suck it up and admit that other guns are equal or better they your mags.

about the field stripping. I really dont see how "hard" it is? People make it out like its a half hour project to tear down the gun. I could have it ripped down, lubed, and put back together in 5-10 minutes easily.

rant over.

[fire1811]

great post shartley

[RRfireblade]

I think these discussion would serve a better purpose if only people who owned one would comment.

Every marker VS thread is dominated by the 'I Heard", "He told me", "I shot a hopper on one once", " I read on the internet" etc.

Only makes for pointless and wasted arguements....and the exact same ones in EVERY version of the topic.

[yakitori]

well, the airsmith here, and store owners opinion on the ION is this.

It's a fast gun, 17bps is quick. It's acceptable in efficiency.. Okay so what? Yes 300 is a great price, if it were solid out of the box but there's a number of things that I was told, and have read that are just crap.

1. Barrel
2. Regulator <- horid
3. Feedneck

That's a pretty sum. Put that on a gun that is a hassle to take apart, accept you'll fall for the hype and start buying 100+ dollar body kits for it.. you're working your way up into the 500 dollar range.

I can't comment on the tolerances of an ION having no knowledge of them. That we will see. But keep in mind... 300 dollars is 300 dollars. It is not comparable to a 900 dollar gun. Smart Parts, can't just take a loss like that.

Besides, if the gun was made by Diablo or someone... none of this hype would exist even if the numbers matched. It's kind of sick how many people out there only have the motive to support the gun based on brand... add those that support it based on it's extreme look and funky name.. then there's the people who actually support it for it's value which is present but still questionable in terms of quality.

Don't flame me though.. I almost bought an Ion yesterday but opted out due to the current issues and lack of a quick fix for the regulator. Aside from that it looks like a childs toy but that's opinion. Right now my money is being saved for a Vision Shocker.. which really is leagues ahead of an Ion in both quality, speed and function. More money? yes. Worth it? yes.

I mean if you even do some reading of the reviews of the Ion there are some consistancies. Cheap bottomline, bad stock barrel, unforgiving trigger, drop off at high ROF, poor disassembly, exposed solenoid coil, LOUD (video proof... louder than my mag), one piece 45 frame and asa ugh..

these aren't instances.. there are consistancies. Hype is called hype because it works!

Have you even shot an Ion? The stock reg is not horid. If you believe that then you believe hype from the other side. The way I see it is, there is a huge amount of information on both sides that is HYPE. PPl hype others against a product, and other hype a product up. I will tell this though. I shoot a viking and have an ION as a backup, and I am impressed w/ the ion. I say that it CAN stand up against 900 dollar markers. Thats what makes it so great. Because its only 300 bucks. W/ the same barrel its not as loud as my mag. NEarly all guns have a cheap bottomline, the trigger is not unforgiving. Just take the trigger magnet out and heat it w/ a lighter a few seconds until you get the right tension.

At least you cant short stroke it and there isnt a long SS or macro fitting on the side of the gun. The solenoid is not exposed, its internal. It is exposed if you remove it.

I also find the feedneck to be fine. It does have orings it in and holds my Halo nicely. But, I know some other high end guns w/ no so perfect feednecks.

The shocker doesnt have break beam eyes. Is it faster, yes. Is the gun w/ that much speed w/ reflective eyes worth it? IMO, no.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's a matter of economics. It's tolerancing is not very high. That is a fact.

No, it's an opinion. THere may be valid reasons to claim the ION is too cheap and unworthy of YOUR purchase. But if you want to discuss FACTS, get your calipers out and measure the dimentions that matter.

The only "tolerances" that matter are the internals and moving components. Not the 4-500$ of needless external esthetics.

Tolerancing issues do not go away with minimalist designs and in-house production does not remove the issues associated with tight tolerances.

What "issues" exist? You don't know what you're talking about. Minimalist design eliminates areas of superfluous tolerancing and QA and changes the manufacturing process to cheaper, yet often equally precise and accurate, manufacturing processes.

That's how it works in many consumer products. Often, the quality of automobiles INCREASES as the price DECREASES. Why? In part because the manufacturer eliminates non-quality manufacturing costs and streamlines the manufacturing process.

Tooling, quality control and analysis, and a skilled machinist/operator costs money. Even if this is all in-house.

Yes. Closer tolerances and higher quality from the same process using the same tools and labour costs more.

But, you statement is completely erroneous because you can get cheaper results any number of ways. The same quality control and analysis with different tooling, processes and labour can result in substantial savings.

Sampling Ions for tolerancing isn't needed to know that the tolernacing is not tight.

Why not? DO you have some magical sith sense that allows you to devine the tolerances requrirements for mechanisms and evaluate how close to those tolerances the quality assurance program is?

They can go crazy loose with the OD of the body, just hammer that body on, or wrap some duct tape on it. I am curious to the o-rings' diametrical clearance used on the Ion.

What do EXTERNAL tolerances and finish have to do with internal O-rings? An automag slug body costs 130$. A ULE 240$. The difference is EXTERNAL milling and finishing that has nothing to do with function.

An E-Mag and X-Mag were about 500$ apart in price. The difference? Purely cosmetic. Do you get it yet? Or are you going to back up your bad tolerance claims with data?

If you're so curious about O-ring tolerances, guess you have to eat crow and go back on your previous statement saying getting the calipers out is unnecesary.

How much does it cost to produce a Shocker/DM4 if one cuts out the milling and anno? I think we have lost the idea of the concept that the high end guns that "cost so much more to make" may just have stupid high mark up from the manufacturer

Finally. Someone who knows what they're talking about.

its actually quite simple.
people bash it because they have to try and justify there $1000 gun that does damn near the same thing as a $300 gun.

That's IT! Frustrated male egos that are boosting themselves and trying to compensate with expensive equipment. They're desperate to cling onto that one last justification for their own perceived greatness.

if it were solid out of the box but there's a number of things that I was told, and have read that are just crap.

1. Barrel
2. Regulator <- horid
3. Feedneck

That's a pretty sum. Put that on a gun that is a hassle to take apart, accept you'll fall for the hype and start buying 100+ dollar body kits for it.. you're working your way up into the 500 dollar range.

Someone else that speaks sense and logic. And presents the TRUE way to compare products.

For the price to be a deciding factor it has to be final price all inclusive of upgrades and required extras. Gotta compare apples with apples.

I expected better CS. I choose to live with it though...

I don't "love" the trigger on the Ion, but in game it works great for me. So I guess there is no complaint there. I have been considering upgrading it, but don't want to get in the position of having a $800 Ion through upgrades (ok, thats exagerated, but I think you know what I mean).

More reasons to dis the ION but still true to putting down the haters who focus on illegitimate and invented beefs.

Perhaps the ION is worthwhile not only as a base starter electro, but also as a second gun IF you already have parts that will limit the expense in 'upgrades'.

But with what you put into the ION what is it's current "as new" price?

[WARPED1]

The Ion isn't exactly very efficient either...

I get like 6 pods and a loader out of 1 fill on a 68, 4.5k fill on my stock Ion. Is that efficient