Has the electro seen its peak?

[kruger]

Well, I dont see necessarily safey issues as much as marketing. Lets take the Walmart thing. Little johnny wants a paintball gun. Mommy says no. Dad looks at what is at Walmart. Sees a paintball gun that has total parental control, ie, bps, velocity. All controled by a little interface thru the computer. Dad can tell his son's marker what it can and cant do. Mommy is happy and lets little johnny have his paintball gun. Cuz dad is in control. And, she can blame him when the neighbors cat is blue and yellow. Kinda simplistic, but you get my drift. Electronics are cheap nowadays.

[RoadDawg]

I still hold it valid, that the RT did seek to increase BPS through technology

So did the invention of a semi auto marker. Same with lighter pump arms for pumps. They "artificially" enhance BPS but it still takes the end user to utilize these items. Much like a lighter baseball bat increases bat speed. If the batter is a wimp the bat speed is going to be poor. Plus if the batter can't pick up the rotation of the ball, no matter the speed of the bat, he'll still miss the ball.

[Lohman446]

So did the invention of a semi auto marker. Same with lighter pump arms for pumps. They "artificially" enhance BPS but it still takes the end user to utilize these items. Much like a lighter baseball bat increases bat speed. If the batter is a wimp the bat speed is going to be poor. Plus if the batter can't pick up the rotation of the ball, no matter the speed of the bat, he'll still miss the ball.

The reason I have a problem with thsi is the term artificial BPS - which has become so MAgcentric as defined by Rogue to be ludicrous. No debate on what the RT did, or that it was legal set up right. My problem is lets whine about "artificial BPS" and then when called on it carefully exclude the mag in its "definition" The definition I disagree with.

[Lohman446]

Very true.

What Lohman wants to do is turn this into a "Mag vs. the world" thread...as he always tries to do.

Except, this thread is about electros, and evolved into their artifical ROF, as defined as a marker shooting themselves without the 1-pull 1-shot of its user. This is most predominantly accomplished by electro ramping boards, or bounce amongst other methods(pneumatics, magnetics, etc). Mags included, as they can bounce.

But once someone concurs that mags can bounce, but says "a mag set-up without bounce", he changes the argument to say "but the trigger return!!!!". Any reasonably experienced individual knows that the trigger return doesnt fire a marker. And so his argument becomes moot.

There you have it, in a nutshell

I would argue that I just called you out on your offhand complaint of "artificial BPS" Sorry if we dont all sit around, sing kumbaya and praise the mag. We're smart enough to have discussion

[cyrus-the-virus]

Electros have certainly have reached a plateau.

One reason for more pump sales for manufactures is the simple fact that there are more players out there, and with more players staying in the game/sport longer, you'll find them wanting a different thrill from their game. Thus, exploring the "roots" of the game with stock and pump markers.

My first 10 man tournament (ahem...way back in the day) it was very common to see a mix of pump and semi's on the field......we had one automag on the team and thought that guy was invincible.

It's good news that every aspect of the game grows, from stock to pump to semi, tournament, scenario, etc.

Now, how about more affordable paint????

Paint IS affordable. Back in the day paint was 0.50 PER BALL (but I'm sure you already know that)

now you can pick up 1000 for 15$

[zaqwert6]

(Without bounce/full-auto) So does better loaders, lighter trigger pulls, gun mounted and tank mounted regulators, the list goes on....



Back on topic! Thanks.

What safety issues do you see with mech markers?

First Part :

1) Actually they do not. Those things only allow persons natural ability to go uninhibited or unrestrained to a greater degree. There is a difference. It's like running on land or running in water. Land doesn't 'aid' your running in anyway , it mearly has less resistance to your natural speed and strength such as a lighter trigger pull versus a heavier mech.

That RT takes the persons ability to beyond his natural means. I realize this is somewhat of a debate going on here BUT let's be honest .......no one taking advantage of an RT is 'pulling' and 'releasing' the trigger of thier own conscience intent shot by shot. We all know that when "Sweetspotting" an RT you are are doing nothing more than finding the point where the correct amount of pressure on the trigger allows it to fire mostly of it's own accord in a continual manner.

Part 2 :

Thanks , Topics around here change faster than a Proballer can change cheat modes during a break out.

I can't go into detail specifically other than to say it's nothing to do with mechinal inherintly having safety 'issues'. It's a different angle.

[REDRT]

In the AGD camp electro has reached its peak and fell of the other side.

[nippinout]

No one can pull a trigger 20bps. I doubt many can even do 16bps.

Noise is not a trigger pull.

[Army]

First Part :
That RT takes the persons ability to beyond his natural means. I realize this is somewhat of a debate going on here BUT let's be honest .......no one taking advantage of an RT is 'pulling' and 'releasing' the trigger of thier own conscience intent shot by shot. We all know that when "Sweetspotting" an RT you are are doing nothing more than finding the point where the correct amount of pressure on the trigger allows it to fire mostly of it's own accord in a continual manner.

"Sweetspotting" is introducing an artificial trigger pull; you finger substituting for a spring/solenoid. Which has nothing to do with the RT design itself.

The RT design was developed to take advantage of the higher pressure, more efficient recharge rates of nitrogen. That it does, recharging faster than any other valve in the industry. All that means, is that it readies itself for another single shot from a single pull of the trigger. Electro's ramp regardless of trigger pull repetitions, resulting in the NON-HUMAN influence of particular design to fire the marker for you....one pull---three or more shots.

The RT CANNOT fire more than one time by itself. One pull---one shot... unless something OUTSIDE the engineered design manipulates the trigger, ie; bouncing off your finger. Finger bouncing was not envisoned nor planned for, thus is a moot point.

Ramping on the other hand, was purposely envisioned, designed, and planned for.

[REDRT]

What does the RT have to do with the topic? Your not going to see an RT at the world cup or a mag period for that matter. So has electro markers in general seen its peak?

[miv22]

The answer to that question comes down to technology. Right now, in the short run, yes, electronic guns have reached A peak. But only in the very short run, and not THE peak. There is no such thing. Right now, electronic guns are almost perfectly suited to the game they are used for, that is, speedball. They can shoot faster than any human could possibly shoot unassisted, and the gun parts can now keep up with the electronics, for the most part. But to say that electros have reached a pinnacle is just like saying that computers have reached a peak. Processors now have millions upon millions of circuits on them, whereas only ten years ago they had just thousands. Ten years ago, however, engineers and scientists didn't even dream of having millions upon millions of circuits on one processor. My point is this: today we have no way of knowing what will come in the future, only that something will come. Sure you can guess, but those are just that, guesses. Its like the old addage, "necessity is the mother of invention". When someone with the capital and knowledge wants a new feature, they will create it. What that will be, no one currently knows.

There will always be another step to take. When enough people get bored with speedball, scenario, woodsball, and every other game imaginable right now, a new game will surface. And with that new game will come new demands for markers. Entrepreneurs will see this, and capitalize on it. The new demands probably won't call for faster guns, but something entirely different and as of now unforseen. As I read the posts in this thread, I notice most people getting stuck on rate of fire. But remember, there is currently much more to electronic guns than simply rate of fire, not to mention what will be included in the future.

So Rogue, and everyone else out there wondering if electronic guns have peaked, don't lose faith. New technology will save the day, and always will. We just don't know in what way yet, thats all.

[dahoeb]

i certainly do think electros are at the top of their little mountain.

what more are they going to do that they don't do already?

virtually no recoil=check
good efficiency(in some cases, great efficiency)= check
great consistency=check
more speed than ANYONE should need= check
relatively easy maintanence= check
no more chopping= check

i just don't see where else there is for the marker itself to go.
if we get another gas source, like propane, that'll shoot up efficiency, but that'll quickly plateau out as well.
for accuracy/consistency, that one is going to be more up to paint manufacturers to make a more perfectly and consistently sized paintball, nothing to do with the marker.

i think there may be a cool new feature or innovation here or there, but nothing to really improve the firing of the marker significally.

theres really only so many ways you can fire a paintball.

[SlartyBartFast]

That's easy. Things that matter:
- design
- materials
- manufacturing

Things that don't matter:
- advertising/hype
- slavish following of brands
- snobbish follwoing of price points

Not exhaustive lists, but IMO the most important points. Now if you eliminate the subjective of exterior design and the costs that milling and annodizing entail, the difference between a cheap marker and a 1000$+ one shrinks significantly.

But I've said this a lot before: Paintballers are mostly identical to ricers. More in awe of a shiney body kit than serious muscle or high revving speed.

[SlartyBartFast]

there is no 'peak' for ROF.

Okay, that's just stupid. There IS a ROF peak beyond which it is impossible to go:
A perfect string of paintballs each just touching, all travelling at 300fps.

That's 300fps/((0.68in/ball)/(12in/ft))=(300ft/s)/(.05667ft/ball)= 5294.117647 BPS.

The answer to that question comes down to technology. Right now, in the short run, yes, electronic guns have reached A peak. But only in the very short run, and not THE peak. There is no such thing.

A similarily silly statement. Currently, physics puts the peak velocity at light speed. So, some astronomical BPS at lightspeed would be the theoretical limit of all paintball development. Plug in the speed of light into the formula above if you absolutely need to know...

All that further limited by the physical properties of paintballs and the targets they are shot at.

Silliness aside, the real question isn't what can the technology perform. Nor vapid arguments about what a theoretical human is actually capable of pulling a trigger. It's what will the sport tolerate?

In car racing, the allowable technology is limited to varying degrees. From everyone in the same vehicle, to limited to some equipment, to limited to some specs, to fully open tenological competition.

Wooden baseball bats are far from the "technological peak", but as far as sanctioned tournament play, the peak has been reached.

In shooting sports, trigger weight and other factors are governed to challenge the gun handling, ROF, as well as the target shooting aspects of the competition. Whether the IPSC, 1000 yard target, or Olympic target shooting.

Purely physical sports limit the peak of performance too. Thus the existence of WADA.

How much change will the sport of paintball go through at competitive levels before players have had enough? Don't know. The industry has a lot of maturing to do. That goes for the industry that is more interested in sales and marketing than sporting competition as well as the players who slavishly follow the "pros" and happily subsidise upper levels of tournaments and the direction of the industry through elevated entrance fees and low returns.

Here's another way to look at technology, advancements, changes, and peaks with regards equipment and sports.

If the rules are widened to allow something, it's change. Not progress, not advancement, not improvement, change.

As soon as someone has to push the envelope of the rules or outright break them to gain advantage, it's a change to the game. The game is simply different than it was before. Not "better" unless subjectively you agree with the change..

12g to "constant air" > Change. First ruled against, then circumvented by the AGD 6pak. Then abolished until the revival of Stock Class.
Force feed hoppers > Change. First ruled against, then circumvented by the AGD Warp Feed. Then abolished.
Allowing ramping/modes > Change. Couldn't enforce the rules in place so bent to the will of the cheaters.
And others.

Just as aluminum baseball bats wouldn't make baseball "better". It would just make it different. Just as the steroid era is not "better" but now viewed as different as stats get little disclaimers added...

[phizz]

sorry no technical stuff in this post but I have to say I'm basically coming from the other side of the fence. I have played pump and mechanical for years probably about 15, and now I'm switching over to electro. So don't forget the other side of the fence.