Has the electro seen its peak?

[Lohman446]

. Again, there is no such thing as artifical BPS..

Typos make for a circular argument

[slade]

ROF = What the Player is capable of. BPS - What the marker is capable of. Youve attempted to change the premise from ROF to BPS. Again, there is no such thing as artifical BPS.

don't try to come up with your own definitions.

ROF is rate of fire.

BPS is balls per second.

for all practital purposes, they are the same thing in paintball. the number of balls coming out of the barrel per time period.

[Lohman446]

The premise of the argument is not max ROF - its the extra trigger return force that increased the ability to achieve a high ROF. Its not the difference from the classics 13 possible without shootdown to the 32 of the RT. Its the 6-8 possible from the classic to the 12-15 from the RT.

[iambored]

I am a little late but it's true pump and woods are coming back full force because of all them degenerate kiddies wiping and continuing and no one like it! I got a full hopper on me by some punk cause I didn't get off the field and out of his way and then he shot the ref for trying to get me off the field without getting shot anymore (Now I don't go to big bethel park) And the true art in the sport was aim! the equation of the present is this junk 1 case = 1 out

I blame the pros if they didn't cheat their followers wouldn't either

[RogueFactor]

The premise of the argument is not max ROF - its the extra trigger return force that increased the ability to achieve a high ROF. Its not the difference from the classics 13 possible without shootdown to the 32 of the RT. Its the 6-8 possible from the classic to the 12-15 from the RT.

Thats true of all faster recharing regulators.Put a crappy reg on any marker, and youll lower the BPS the marker is capable of.

Hitech hit it on the head--->

However, I will say that "run-away" of any type never should have been allowed. That does artificially increase BPS. Without that, it is simply the marker readying itself for the next shot as quick as possible.

[Lohman446]

Thats true of all faster recharing regulators.Put a crappy reg on any marker, and youll lower the BPS the marker is capable of.

Are you making an attempt to argue against the RT effect on the trigger return or just sideline the argument?

[RogueFactor]

Are you making an attempt to argue against the RT effect on the trigger return or just sideline the argument?

Neither.

All frames have some sort of 'trigger return'. Whether that be springs connected to the sear or trigger itself, magnets in the trigger , a return spring in the switch, they all aid in the return of the trigger. Also, lighter triggers through the use of electronic switches, or trigger kits also allow for user-based ROF increases.

But all of those have nothing to do with artifical ROF. When a computer fires a marker for you, thats artificial. If technology causes bounce/full-auto/runaway, thats artificial. Anything that causes the marker to 'fire' without a pull from the user, is artificial. The trigger return does not do this.

Your argument of trigger return has nothing to do with the actual discharge part of the firing sequence in a 1-pull, 1-shot world. The trigger return part of the sequence has only to do with the resetting the systems to allow another discharge, as Hitech pointed out.

Youd like to believe that this attempts to argue against the RT effect, or sidelines the argument. It does neither. What it does do is make the 'RT Effect" argument moot, as it just doesnt apply here. So, youve sidelined yourself by trying to argue a non-sequitur

[Arstron]

Youd like to believe that this attempts to argue against the RT effect, or sidelines the argument. It does neither. What it does do is make the 'RT Effect" argument moot, as it just doesnt apply here. So, youve sidelined yourself by trying to argue a non-sequitur

[Lohman446]

Yes.

That never stops someone from bringing up the negative aspects of a mag to somehow tie it into the original topic in an attempt to label mag shooters hypocritical(see post #121)

The problem I have is this. Mag owners whining about the arms race that is BPS. Look at TKs post - he was giving what people wanted, he was participating in that arms race. Mags used technology to increase BPS. I just questioned what "artificial BPS" was. I'm dismayed that the argument centers only on technology AGD did not use. Mag owners are hypocritical. "Mags the thing you never have to tune" + LX = oh, occassional tuning is ok. THe whole BPS argument, as long as its a mag doing it its great...

[RogueFactor]

The problem I have is this. Mag owners whining about the arms race that is BPS. Look at TKs post - he was giving what people wanted, he was participating in that arms race. Mags used technology to increase BPS. I just questioned what "artificial BPS" was. I'm dismayed that the argument centers only on technology AGD did not use. Mag owners are hypocritical. "Mags the thing you never have to tune" + LX = oh, occassional tuning is ok. THe whole BPS argument, as long as its a mag doing it its great...

This thread wasnt started with any particular individual make of marker in mind.Or an arms race. Merely the questions "have electros seen their peak?".

Simply put, we started with pumps. Those pumps lasted for X years, when semi's were introduced. Semi's life cycle lasted X years, when electros were introduced. No problems up to this point, because the player was still required to pull the trigger for every shot, so skill was still the major variable.

The quest for equipment that allowed the player to maximize their skill was never an issue up to this point. Now that the equipment is capable of shooting beyond the individual users skills, the equipment is created to shoot FOR the player, diminishing one of the major skills of the game.

With the advent of each progression(pump to semi, semi to electro), the industry has added to their player base. While some have left with each progression, no stage has seen quite the flight that the 'electro-to-ramping electro' stage is currently seeing.

I just recently read a thread, by you, stating how youve grown to dislike what paintball has become. We may disagree on how it became what it is, but I think we both agree its different, and undesirable.

The 'mag owners are hypocritical" argument is one for another thread, it just doesnt apply to this one. Bounce, runaway, full-auto, ramp arent ok whether its with a mag or not.

[Lohman446]

Artificial ROF is overrated.

I think Tom said it best with this quote...

THis is after Rabidchihahua made a statement directly in response to the threads question. You're the one who decided to make it about "artificial ROF" whatever that is

[slade]

All frames have some sort of 'trigger return'. Whether that be springs connected to the sear or trigger itself, magnets in the trigger , a return spring in the switch, they all aid in the return of the trigger. Also, lighter triggers through the use of electronic switches, or trigger kits also allow for user-based ROF increases.

come on Rogue, i expect better of you.

the difference lies in the fact that everything you mentioned - springs, magnets, microswitch, whatever, have the same return and actuation forces.

an RT mag, however, has a greater return force than actuation force, hence, the RT effect.

suppose i modified my cyborg so instead of having two opposing magnets, as it does now, it had one magnet, and one electromagnet. the electromagnet would be activated for a few milliseconds after the microswitch is closed. would you consider that legal? its like an electronic RT.

[hitech]

I think we have two completely different "arguments" happening here.

First is "technology being used to increase rate of fire". EVERY manufacture has done that, period. It has been done ever with every "marker" since the first one. Pumps instead of bolt action, gravity feed instead of rock and cock, auto trigger, semi auto. Then there have been improvements to existing items. Smoother pumps, lighter triggers, shorter trigger pulls, double+ finger triggers. In all of these things manufactures attempted to increase YOUR max trigger pulls. The RT fits this category as long as it is not bouncing or in run-away.

Then there is the other argument, where the marker is firing one or more shots without a trigger pull. Burst modes, ramping, full auto and the RT when it's bouncing or in run-away fit in this category.

The bottom line is that 'mags have certainly contributed to the arms race. How much so is up for debate.

(Personally, I've always thought that the ease of getting an RT to bounce should have been fixed. However, since the ease of bouncing electros quickly surpassed the RT no one bothered...)

And loosing the non-tuning aspect of a 'mag via the level 10 was unfortunate. But you can make that choice for yourself. You can successfully do electronic, eyes and level 7. Personally, I think the positive way out weighted the negative. But it is still a negative.

[slade]

Springs and magnets do not have equal actuation and return forces. The load of a spring and its force change based on the springs characteristics(spring torsion, length, coils, wire material, shape of that material(square, round),shape of the spring, etc). When a spring is compressed, it has different force characteristics than when its not compressed and all throughout the free length.

The force of magnets differ depending on the point of magnetic radiation, this directional energy can be radial, directional in a number of variations, depending on how the material has been magnetized. The force required to separate magnets differs from the force of attraction, and is affected by distance. The closer magnets get to each other, the greater the force exponentitally.

yes, and you missed the point completely. suppose you measure the rotation of the trigger as it pivots. At any theta value, the force the spring or magnet is exerting on the trigger will be the same, regardless if the trigger is being pulled or released.

however, with an RT mag, the force for any given theta value will be greater during the trigger return than during the pull. hence, the RT effect.

[zaqwert6]

The RT aids the shooter in reaching a ROF he could not otherwise achieve without the RT effect regardless of finger speed or shooting ability.... that's the simple fact.

Arguing over the detailed specifics of how/why it does that is nothing more than semantics , get over it.



As for the other ,

Has the electro seen its peak?

No , the electro will continue to increase in poplarity and conitnue to dominate the vast majority of the game in every possible aspect , form and style till something 'better' comes along.

At some time probably in the not to distant future (5-10years?) , probably for safety reasons , you won't even be able to buy a Mech gun in walmart.