Ramping is so wrong, but run away is great

[Target Practice]

Here's a question nobody has asked. With all this ramping and sweetspoting going on shooting mountains of paint why am I still paying $60 a case?!

Same reason that people will drive an SUV that gets 15 miles to the gallon with gas being $3.15 a gallon.

[ottomobile]

Same reason that people will drive an SUV that gets 15 miles to the gallon with gas being $3.15 a gallon.

Dude! You live in the coolest place ever! To bad they'll never let you play paintball up at the castle, as big as that place is, that would rock!



Yeah, I was just hoping that with so many people using a lot of paint the price would come down. It used to be expensive because of a limited market, now I guess its expensive because, hey, why not!

[Asym]

No reason to chill out, and wasn't trying to come down on anyone I just agree with the original post why is sweetspoting ok but not ramping. IMO its just about the same thing, neither takes much skill, but I do think the ramping is just a tad safer(not by a whole lot though). Ramping can be capped at whatever maximum you set it to, sweetspoting you really don't have any control of your ROF.

But I am offended by the term cheater board, that implys that I'm a cheater. Just because its a common term used for them doesn't make it right, kind of like racial slurs. Is ramping legal? yep, so I guess its not cheating.

[Evil Bob]

Lets get our definitions right...

"Full Auto" is a situation in which the marker fires when the trigger is fully depressed and held in the firing position, the trigger only returns to the rest state when the marker stops firing.

"Runaway" is a situation in which the marker fires without imput after the frist trigger event starts it and cannot be stopped until the air sorce is cut.

"Sweet spotting" is a user controled situation (unlike runaway) in which the user applies constant pressure on the trigger and the RT effect returns the trigger a bit harder then the user pulls.

"Ramping" is a situation in which programmed software decides at which point to start adding balls per trigger event.

"Hyper mode" is a situation in which the programmed software interprets what is a trigger event which can include switch noise and any other such electronic anomalies to start a firing event.


Alrighty then...

"Runaway" is never a desireable mode simply from the fact that the user has no control over the firing sequence once the marker goes into runaway.

"Sweetspotting" *IS* not even remotely close to ramping. Ramping artificially adds rounds per trigger event, sweetspotting is still 1 shot per 1 pull in that the trigger is returned to the rest state upon completion of each and every round fired. What makes it a grey area issue is that there is constant pressue applied to the trigger just like when using "Full Auto", the only difference is in the mechanical design of the triggering system in question, one requires the trigger to remain depressed, the other returnd the trigger to the rest state after each firing event. Sweetspotting is technically legal by definition as it is still only one pull per shot fired as the trigger still needs to go through the entire movement curve to fire each individual round. As others have stated, sweetspotting takes a bit of skill to accomplish successfully, ramping does not.

Now the question is do I believe that sweetspotting should be allowed in a tourny despite the fact that it is still technically one shot one pull? My personal take is "No, it shouldn't, it was never intended to be a function of the valve design by AGD, its design bug", therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

-Evil Bob

[JRingold]

Sweetspotting, Ramping, 3-round burst, full auto, whatever, they all have a proper time and place. My main issue with them is when they are used in recreational play where walk-on players could be there for their first time.

The one thing that I will never understand is when an experienced player feels the need to use ramping or even an e-marker when playing recreational ball at an open play where most of the other players are using rentals.

As far as the competitive scene, whatever you crazy people want to do is great, just leave it on the competition field and quit mowing the muppets that come out to play for fun!

The soapbox is now available for the next rant...

[MadPSIence]

Ahh yeah, my bad.
Thought you were refering to that post.
I myself don't see ramping as a problem.
I don't ever use it, but on my predator timmy, it was alot of fun to screw around with in my backyard.
Will I use ramping on my mag?
Naw. I'm fast enough on the trigger.
The best part about these guys posting about ramping,
is that I bet 80% on here rarely if ever play paintball.

I play every weekend and I practice twice a week. Does that count as rarely if ever?

[Automaggot68]

I play every weekend and I practice twice a week. Does that count as rarely if ever?

Thats awesome!
Next year you can play with SS. DJ89 on Team AO!

[MadPSIence]

Thats awesome!
Next year you can play with SS. DJ89 on Team AO!

who now?

[stop whining buy a mag]

Sweetspotting is not a "skill". I've been able to show a first time player how to do it 3 minutes before a game. A friend of mine has an RT ULE with the ULT. Preset tank with 6 shims I believe. If you can put your finger up against the top part of the Viperblade trigger then all you have to do is hold it there.

Sweetspotting is not Semi. Your finger isn't even moving enough to justify that you "pulled and released the trigger." You simply sat back, put your finger in the right spot and let the trigger bounce back on it after the sear kicks it back.

And no, I don't ramp. Semi is just fine for me.

[ottomobile]

Sweetspotting is not a "skill". I've been able to show a first time player how to do it 3 minutes before a game. A friend of mine has an RT ULE with the ULT. Preset tank with 6 shims I believe. If you can put your finger up against the top part of the Viperblade trigger then all you have to do is hold it there.

Sweetspotting is not Semi. Your finger isn't even moving enough to justify that you "pulled and released the trigger." You simply sat back, put your finger in the right spot and let the trigger bounce back on it after the sear kicks it back.

And no, I don't ramp. Semi is just fine for me.

What's moving enough? I have the trigger stops set on my impulse so the trigger pull is about a millimeter. The weight of my finger is enough to fire that. You won't hear anyone calling that sweetspotting even though I garuntee the RT pushes my finger more than a millimeter. Most semi-auto electros have sub 4mm trigger pulls and hairpin triggers so you cannot use distance as a measure of weather a gun is semi-out or not. Evil Bob is absolutley right and if you disaggree set up a lab experiment and see for yourselves.
Your finger will be pushed back by the RT and the ONLY way to make it fire again is to increase the resistance in your finger. You may not think its much but it is measurable and by definition is one shot per trigger pull.

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.

[Lohman446]

If jarring the marker or the tank causes the marker to fire it is not enough - thats in answer to your impulse question and the rules (ASTM safety standards / NPPL / PSP) pretty well state that one.

In regards to the RT question, I think its a joke on these boards how much we justify run away - not the RT effect that kicks the trigger back - but run away and sweet spotting. Come on, you don't truly beleive those should constitute trigger pulls do you?

[Lohman446]

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.

Slippery slope....

I have seen people who have never played before handed traditionally ramping markers (4 trigger pulls per second to ramp). They could not do it at first and had to "learn how" thus it is a skill because it requires learning (and Im adding or natural talent) to do according to your definition of having to learn.

[yakitori]

What's moving enough? I have the trigger stops set on my impulse so the trigger pull is about a millimeter. The weight of my finger is enough to fire that. You won't hear anyone calling that sweetspotting even though I garuntee the RT pushes my finger more than a millimeter. Most semi-auto electros have sub 4mm trigger pulls and hairpin triggers so you cannot use distance as a measure of weather a gun is semi-out or not. Evil Bob is absolutley right and if you disaggree set up a lab experiment and see for yourselves.
Your finger will be pushed back by the RT and the ONLY way to make it fire again is to increase the resistance in your finger. You may not think its much but it is measurable and by definition is one shot per trigger pull.

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.

This has been argued before and it is not a valid point. For all purposes, RTs, and sweetspotting is not legal. Its not one shot one pull. Its a bouncing rapid firing trigger that is used to gain a firepower advantage against others by using some kind of assistance w/ the trigger rod. The tippmann RT is a similar problem where the rod resets the trigger, but it can be sweetspotted to mimic full auto. Its not a valid argument you are making.

Since you are going around posting links to zak vetters page maybe you should read the one where it says its illegal in a tourney play and will get you DQd? Yep, DQd, your marker anyway. And then good luck bringing the same marker back on the field whether sweetspotting or not.

[BigEvil]

I love this place. Its so much more friendly than PBN and we get to have to such healthy conversations... I think I feel a group hug coming on!

AMEN


To chime in the the Ramp/Runaway thing.. I always thought runaway was when you pulled the trigger and the gun kept firing uncontrolably. I think that mayby the term "Bounce" is more appropriate to describe the RT trigger.


I think that this kind of debate had gone on in paintball every single time either a new peice of technology comes out or a new style of play. ...And it is always between the "HAVEs" and HAVE-NOTs"

I remember having this same type of discussion with people when the first 68. Specials hit the field. They were really the first semi to make an impact on the fields.


Trigger enhancements are here to stay.. so you either better evolve or find a new hobby. The real issue with all of this crap will be the enforcement of rules and safety regulations.

[Lohman446]

Trigger enhancements are here to stay.. so you either better evolve or find a new hobby. The real issue with all of this crap will be the enforcement of rules and safety regulations.

ASTM standards (the industry accepted safety guidelines) have long since been thrown by the wayside in the arms race of paintball today. Now we are simply waiting for the next tragedy and series of law suits that will follow it.