Ramping is so wrong, but run away is great

[SlartyBartFast]

For what purpose? The demo purpose or for in game?

[Automaggot68]

It had always been against the rules until recently. The only reason a few tournaments decided to allow it is because they couldn't catch the CHEATERS. So, even though it is now within the rules, it was CHEATING before the change. And it's not within the rules in many places.

I still consider it CHEATING. Giving in to the CHEATERS is not acceptable.

And I like soapbox and I'm going to keep it.

Shoeshine, eh guvna?

[Lohman446]

Plus, you and others have charged AO as a community with hypocrisy while only the possible hypocrisy of a few can be shown.

My first post, I think you are overreading it as applying to the community as a whole rather than some of the members

I think this is a major shortcoming by some of the memers of AO in being logical and consistent in there positions.

[BigEvil]

More BS and schenanigans. If the rules don't allow enhancements, they don't allow them. NPPL doesn't allow them, PSP does. Who's wrong?

Who gave you the right to define the sport/hobby?

Change is not evolution. Change is not always good. Even if good it is not always necessary.

The only day you can tell anyone to leave the sport because they don't agree with YOUR desired style of play is the day that you own all the fields and manufacturers and run ALL the tournaments.

Hey if I had my way we'd all be playing pump, im just stating the nature of things. The cat is out of the bag and no one will be able to put it back in.

I agree that change is not always good, but this is the path that the sport took. Also look at the way these tournies are run now. They know they cant realistically prevent any of these types of enhancements from being used and now they are just content to TRY and regulate them. I dont know about you, but I cant tell the difference between a 15pbs ramp and a 17bps ramp. BUT, in some instances, 15bps is ok, and 17bps is cheating. Fields are still trying to tackle the enforcement of the basic rules, such as wiping and chroning. While in the big leauges they may have a way of testing these things, the average rec ball field is lucky if they have adiquate reffing for the day.


There are probably more people who are for these 'enhancements' then against. I bet there are a lot of "If I cant beat em, Im gonna join them" people too.

Is it good for the sport? Who can say? What is right for one group may be bad for another. I started playing in 1991. For 9 years I never owned a cup. Now I check to make sure i have it even before I pack my guns. It's not the same game anymore. These trends trickel down from the top of the paintball world all the way eventually to the newbies.

Like I said earlier. We have these same debates EVERY TIME the game evolves.

I guess if it were bad, less people would be playing. Is that the case?

[Beemer]

ASTM standards (the industry accepted safety guidelines) have long since been thrown by the wayside in the arms race of paintball today. Now we are simply waiting for the next tragedy and series of law suits that will follow it.

You said ASTM and Standards and Safety

Really it was the industry that CREATED the standards and then decided to ignore them. 41 people in the industry on the subcommittee that care about your safety.

The first thing you will hear is, Oh those are voluntary.

Maybe that is why AGD fell behind. He helped create and put his name on those standards and refused to just ignore them like everyone else

Only valve around that I know of that is stamped, rated at 3000psi[ASTM Standard]

Peace Out

___________

[dolphin1823]

No. RT is not one pull one shot. You pull the trigger once, and if inputs high enough, the trigger bounces off your finger at fast speeds just like ramping does. That's why before the Eguns came out, the RT was basically banned from every tourney and most fields. Face it, the RT is just as "bad" as a ramping marker.

back then before LVL 10 you had a good chance of having a blender, which is no good.
I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long, becasue how many RT trigger markers are used nowadays in tournys?? Maybe to few for anyone to care about.
In rec ball there's the A-5 which is very easy to sweet spot, took me 2 tries to get it to work, but the rate of fire wasn't very high IMO.
The X-valves are less reactive than the classic RT valves, I don't know how the ULT on/off affects that, but I though I read it made it even less reacative than the stock on/off. Other than those to markers I can't think of another that has an RT trigger, maybe the M98 has a mod for it, I can't remember.

As a mech Mag shooter, the only consern I have about ramping is safty in a Rec ball format. Having a new player, friend or family shot up alot. I know overshooting is all on the player and not on the gun, so maybe my fears are false, like the fear I had that the Flatline barrel was going to ruin paintball.
I feel its ok in Tournys, in fact I've thought about it and changed my opinion. I think its good that it levels the playing field, even though some feel that shooting fast is a skill, I think its more important that the team with better playing skills wins and not the ones with faster markers. If every marker can shoot 15 bps, then the team with better movement, accurecy and communication skills should win. Kinda like in base ball, the team with the better hitters should win, not a team with better bats.

[Faddy]

just a question? does the reverse polarity magnet triggers like on the new Shockers and Ions, produce an RT type effect? If so then you have both the sweet spotting ability along with the ramping feature.

No, it won't.

The following description is just an example, it is not exactly how the RT works. So please don't tell me my numbers are wrong, I know that already.

In an RT, let's say it requires 2lbs of pressure to trip the sear and fire the marker. Well, the RT pushes the trigger back at a number higher than that...say 4 lbs. Part of sweetspotting is getting your pull weight somewhere between the firing pressure and the return pressure. Too much pressure (over the return pressure) and you'll only get one shot. Not enough pressure (under the firing pressure) and you won't be able to trip the sear and the marker won't fire.

With magnetic triggers, they work just like springs. The pull weight and return weight will stay constant throughout the pull. Technically speaking, the further the two magnets in the trigger in the frame get from one another, the less pull they have, meaning it has the opposite effect of the RT. Now, the distances they get from each other are so small this doesn't really make an effect, but just something to say to show that you will not get "reactivity" from magnetic triggers.

Now...if someone made an "electro-magnetic trigger" then you could possibly get some reactivity...but thats a whole new can of worms.

[SlartyBartFast]

My first post, I think you are overreading it as applying to the community as a whole rather than some of the members

[ottomobile]

No. RT is not one pull one shot. You pull the trigger once, and if inputs high enough, the trigger bounces off your finger at fast speeds just like ramping does. That's why before the Eguns came out, the RT was basically banned from every tourney and most fields. Face it, the RT is just as "bad" as a ramping marker.

Hmm, I don't think you've understood me. I've already demonstrated that you do have to apply a force usually through your finger to the trigger each and every firing cycle. If you replaced your finger with a rigid rod the marker would fire once and stop because the rod doesn't move. The RT effect is caused by the returning trigger moving your finger. Your finger swings back with more force and momentum slams into the trigger and repeats. Peak sweetspoting happens when your finger and the trigger reach equalibrium essentially bouncing off of each other. Since you have to intentionally move your finger its still one shot per trigger pull. Every time you move your finger past the firing point it has to be considered a trigger pull. So what I'm saying is that in RT mode you are physically the cause of each and every shot where in Ramping the computer is partially responsible.

A more valid comparison would be to say that both RTs and Ramped markers are semi automatic machines that have mechanisms so that when fired rapidly they exhibit non-semi automatic characteristics. The latter utilizing a computer to add shots up to 15 bps, the former utilizing a force-feedback mechanism.

[SlartyBartFast]

Only valve around that I know of that is stamped, rated at 3000psi[ASTM Standard]

[Lohman446]

It actually says the marker can be no good after it, it just must leak in a way to not cause injury to the user to be considered non-catastrophic. At least as I read it.

[slade]

no one is monitoring every member. he is just pointing out that in just about every thread about a RT mag shooting insanely fast with sweetspotting, the general consensus is "OMG that is so awesome!!!" but in most threads on the topic of ramping, the majority of the posts are somewhat along the line of "those cheating bastards!"

Hmm, I don't think you've understood me. I've already demonstrated that you do have to apply a force usually through your finger to the trigger each and every firing cycle. If you replaced your finger with a rigid rod the marker would fire once and stop because the rod doesn't move. The RT effect is caused by the returning trigger moving your finger. Your finger swings back with more force and momentum slams into the trigger and repeats. Peak sweetspoting happens when your finger and the trigger reach equalibrium essentially bouncing off of each other. Since you have to intentionally move your finger its still one shot per trigger pull. Every time you move your finger past the firing point it has to be considered a trigger pull. So what I'm saying is that in RT mode you are physically the cause of each and every shot where in Ramping the computer is partially responsible.

you dont have to physically pull the trigger each shot by any means... it is "RT" if the trigger returns to its origional position with more force than was required to actuate the trigger. therefore, if you found the proper spring (length and rigidity) you could set up the marker to fire continuously without even putting a finger on it.

[Lohman446]

Edited: Out of respect I have made this post into a PM to Slarty who asked for me to give the example... I trust he will at some point tell you guys I gave him an example

[maglover728]

Does anyone here play in the woods? I have seen A5s move paint pretty damn fast and they are legal. Weather they have the RT grip or their electro grip, for suppression fire you can count on the A5 to lay it down.

Now, If they can do that, why should anyone keep me from upping the input pressure of my mag until I can do the same? These kids show up with their Ions and ramping boards, bring 2 cases of paint out into the woods and leave their case of skill at home, never mind, their daddy couldn't buy them the skill.

Tact, communications, balls and respect is what gets the job done in the woods. Having a marker that puts down lots of paint is just a bonus when covering your team mate while he moves up.

[Automaggot68]

Does anyone here play in the woods? I have seen A5s move paint pretty damn fast and they are legal. Weather they have the RT grip or their electro grip, for suppression fire you can count on the A5 to lay it down.

Now, If they can do that, why should anyone keep me from upping the input pressure of my mag until I can do the same? These kids show up with their Ions and ramping boards, bring 2 cases of paint out into the woods and leave their case of skill at home, never mind, their daddy couldn't buy them the skill.

Tact, communications, balls and respect is what gets the job done in the woods. Having a marker that puts down lots of paint is just a bonus when covering your team mate while he moves up.

Yeah! go get' em commando!