Why are so many so called "vets" so scared of

[nate2k191]

ions shoot fast, no doubt, but thats not enough to stop me, just gotta play smart, move at the right times, shoot at the right times and own noobs like every day. bottom line is noobs are noobs and you take advantage of the nooby-ness and eliminate those scrubs.

[Carbon]

In a day and age when percieved "Skillz" are being replaced by "Firepower" and the mentality of the average player is that of a 12 year old with the industry apparently being driven by 13 year olds and performance guns are being made for close to nothing and sold for just more than nothing. The sport has changed, yay.

I remember when I stopped playing paintball for a while, I moved to an area which apparently didnt' have a community. When I left snap shooting was a fine art, posting was a common practice, tournament games lasted around 3 or 4 minutes, the Angel was king, blah blah blah.

Come back in late 2003 and suddenly the game's undergone some crazy evolution. Laning is a major offensive practice, snap shooting appears to have fallen into severe depression, ......

Anyway... point being... What Vets fear is Change

Good post Fenix, I guess at the very heart of is, it is the fear of change.

[AgentSmith]

Putting aside the safety aspects for a minute, one thing that confuses this whole issue more is the split in paintball between indoor and woodsball.

What Nate says applies to indoor ball fine, with max teams of ten:
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"ions shoot fast, no doubt, but thats not enough to stop me, just gotta play smart, move at the right times, shoot at the right times and own noobs like every day. bottom line is noobs are noobs and you take advantage of the nooby-ness and eliminate those scrubs."
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However, when you're talking a woodsball game with 40 or more people on a team, that 'Neo in the matrix' stuff goes bye-bye. There's too much paint in the air for that sort of melodrama when you're talking about a team with a DOZEN ions and the other THIRTY people with flatline A-5's and 98's.

you can't correctly say 'vets fear change'(I yawn at change).
Some vets like it, some hate it, some snuggle right up to it and to say 'vets fear change' is as bigoted and wrong as saying 'everyone shooting a semiauto is an overshooting cheater'.
Here's a glimpse of the obvious-only a 'vet' can observe that there has been any change, you see? how would a firsttimer know anything has changed to be afraid of, exactly?

One thing is correct, though, it IS a change and has to be dealt with. If I'm laning you, try to snap shoot me, go ahead... those old tactics, as fun as they were, NO LONGER WORK! Dry firing your splatmaster a few times to provoke a rush doesn't work anymore either, big deal.

Once again the indoor/outdoor split comes in, if there's forty people on a team, you can't carry enough paint to lane anyone.

The game has changed constantly since the first paintball made, thank heavens, or there would be no Automags.org nor automags for that matter, we'd all be playing with nelspots and oil paint.

It is possible to adapt your game to fit the world, instead of vainly hoping that the world will change to suit you.
I play at one of the largest, oldest fields in the country, with teams averaging 40-50 a side(when it's not a +2000 player big game) using a semiauto 10 shot pistol and my sheridan pump. I'm having my Minimag made into a 10 shot pistol, because it just lays in the case while I play with a cheesy Zeus.
I've adapted my game, that's all. I can fire(if necessary) all the paint that I carry tubed(140 rounds) in less than one fifteen minute game. When the teams have dwindled to five or ten on a side, I can pull out my pumper and 'own noobs' as Nate would say.

I've learned to play in a style that allows me to stay in, stay effective and stay happy. If I lose one of those three, I'll change again and life goes on.

Rob

[quasimorte]

Just wanted to chime in with something i read in a mag a little while ago. In a recent insurance analysis of outdoor sports (paintball was recently moved from the gun or shooting sports and into the outdoor sports catagory) paintball was one of the top five safest outdoor sports. What this means is that fewer people are seriously injured playing paint ball every year than almost every sport played in highschool or college. and where injury is occuring it is not from an inherant part of the sport ( guy gets 3degree burns over 30% of his body while wearing guillie suit.) people think that because we are shooting at eachother this sport must inherantly be dangerous. but i ask you from a physics stand point what can do more damage, a water balloon weighing less that an ounce flying at 300 FPS or a 150lb linebacker spacifically and inteligently trying to hurt you? anyway to get back to topic.
I hate short games, ions tend to create shorter games so therefore i hate ions. Give me a day long Big Game with 400+ other peaple any day to a 30 second speed/airball game. thats just my opinion.

[REDRT]

I've played the game for more than a decade now. I guess I could be called a vet. The ION to me is a through away. Disposable like a camera at the Wal-mart checkout line. Yeah it works, even works well if you get a good one. But it still a disposable. It is a cheap substitute. I had to take out a loan from the credit union for 850 and a couple hundred out of my pocket to get my first mag. I still have it. It is as pristine as the day I bought it. And still works like it to. If the ION can hold up like that maybe I'd give it some consideration. As many of them as I seen go down, I don't think that is a possibility. I like my mags and I deck them out. Kind of like resto modding a old car. That is what I like. I'm not scared of inferior markers just not impressed.

[jenarelJAM]

Just wanted to chime in with something i read in a mag a little while ago. In a recent insurance analysis of outdoor sports (paintball was recently moved from the gun or shooting sports and into the outdoor sports catagory) paintball was one of the top five safest outdoor sports. What this means is that fewer people are seriously injured playing paint ball every year than almost every sport played in highschool or college. and where injury is occuring it is not from an inherant part of the sport ( guy gets 3degree burns over 30% of his body while wearing guillie suit.) people think that because we are shooting at eachother this sport must inherantly be dangerous. but i ask you from a physics stand point what can do more damage, a water balloon weighing less that an ounce flying at 300 FPS or a 150lb linebacker spacifically and inteligently trying to hurt you? anyway to get back to topic.
I hate short games, ions tend to create shorter games so therefore i hate ions. Give me a day long Big Game with 400+ other peaple any day to a 30 second speed/airball game. thats just my opinion.

I like short games, because when you get shot, you want to play again, you don't want to sit out for 20 minutes waiting for the game to end, you want to wait 5 minutes refilling and reloading, then go out and play again immediately.

Alright, you see, I have to appologize now. When I got mad about people talking about ION, I also had some idiots making it seem like god on the other forum I go to, and I was stressed out because my highschools play director is randomly scheduling me to be at her house for extra practice (during times I am busy), getting mad at me when I miss them. The even funnier thing is, I am not the one in the play that needs work, its many others, such as the lead character, who is more important than me.

Anyway, I am very sorry about the way I acted. I cant handle my anger when it builds up the way it has been lately. What I should have said is something more like this:

As far as I am concerned, it really doesn't matter what vets are afraid of. I dont personally care for the ION myself, but I dont believe its cheating or anything to be afraid of. I just think its funny how some vets can kick people with electros butts with a pump, and then some others just fear those electros. I cant complain about electronics... I think some people should just be a bit more open about other's gear.

Wow, I have so much respect for you right now. I have heard soooo many people back up their positions, even when it was evident they were going to be trashed. It is heartening to see someone come back, admit that things were bothering them, and contribute to this forum. This is why AO is my favorite forum, people here act respectfully(for the most part) and still have some honor.

I'm not afraid. I will play speedball against ramping timmies with my mech cocker, I don't care about being outgunned, I suck at PB anyway ( ).

What I do care about it kids overshooting other kids because they now have the ability to shoot 15bps, but not the maturity to handle it.

Ions are great, and I really give SP props for designing a marker they can manufacture cheaply enough to put it in people's hands for the price they do.

BUT, there is now a greater need than ever before to educate the user of the marker as to the firepower they now wield. (and by educate, I don't mean hosing a target at the chroney range and then saying "That's what you can do now" while giggling like a school girl . . . . . )

Kids with super markers are fine, but they really need to be taught how to use them in a manner that will not damage anyone. This goes for ANY super marker, not just an Ion or Bushy, etc.

Past that, they can do whatever they like.

So yeah, bring on the overshooting, I'm built like a frickin' oak tree anyway!

You sir, are my idol. I've been brought up to believe that you work for what you get, and by the time I could work for my marker, I had enough experience to at least try to play respectfully. I don't play with ramping(although i have it, and I dry-fire with it for fun), I don't up my velocity(I actually play about 20 fps lower than the limit), and I try to help "noobs"(for lack of a better word) as much as I can with what I know. This is in large part because of people such as yourself setting a good example for people like me. (for the record, im 17, have been playing 3 years)(and I like parentheses, get over it)

[bleachit]

random non sensical post:

been playing against full auto spyders and tippy RT's for 2 years now... hows a 15bps ramping ion any different? its not. ok, so its woodsball... try hiding behind a 1 foot diameter tree with 15+ bps coming at you full auto. meh, I like the firepower differential it makes life more exciting. That and I think electros are too complicated.. with their wires and their batteries.. Hells, I didnt even get an electro hopper till just after the Halo TSA came out...been playing since 2000, and I only use that when abolutely neccessary. Ive never owned an electro.. only played with one once.

what was the point? I dunno, its late and this thread made me nostalgic thinking about the woodsballin times of years gone by.

/current marker is tippy 98 with non electro 140 round hopper
//not a custom, its the old version
///yeah, its like 7? 8 years old?
////my bro bought it shortly after tippmann released it
/////he never took care of it and its still rocking
//////havent played in like 9 months
///////this thread makes me miss woodsballin in WNY
////////Holy Slashes Batman
/////////did I do the slashes right?

[VFX_Fenix]

you can't correctly say 'vets fear change'(I yawn at change).
Some vets like it, some hate it, some snuggle right up to it and to say 'vets fear change' is as bigoted and wrong as saying 'everyone shooting a semiauto is an overshooting cheater'.

There are inherently two major views of the world. That change is good, and that change is bad. The people who are in the "Change is good camp" have few issues with what ever changes have occured. You'll notice that in the world the people who are okay with the way things are going will often remain content and trot along merrily with the pace of things.

The other camp, the "Change is bad" one, however do have issue with these changes and for good or ill they tend to make their opinions known. There is the issue of "squeaky wheel" syndrome which is what tends to get the most attention. Consider it an elitism, if you will.

By-gone are the days when the AutoCocker/Mag were professional level guns, I've seen more people with Autocockers as their first gun than I ever saw people who were experienced players who used Autocockers AND Automags combined. The Angel was the hot gun to own if you were a tourney player, no longer is that the case. Here, however I believe is the core of the problem. For the longest time, for as long as I've been playing, if you were to own a fast gun, you had to pay out what a month of flippin' hambergers full time at McDonald's would get you and then some, maybe more if you wanted a REALLY hot gun. The Smart Parts Ion has effectively destroyed that house of glass. No longer is the game of "who has a fast gun" a race of the haves, but the have-nots (or at least the have not-so-muches) can play too.

In any system there are forces which attempt to maintain the current state of things and there are forces which attempt alter the current state of things. The conservative and the liberal, and they are forever locked in a battle that will ultimately cause growth or stagnation. Pleas to the "Good-Old-Days" are inherently flawed claims because, try as we might, the Old Days were rarely Good.

Case in point, a roommate of mine claims that he was born in the worng century, that he'd be much happier in Mideavil Europe when things were so much simpler. I'd point out that they were also dirtier, diseases which are little more than a cold could be fatal, and he'd probably already be dead because he'd mouth off to the wrong person and find an unpleasant sensation about his midrif.

Same is true for paintball.

Good-Old-Days of Nelspot 007's and oil based paint when no one cheated and you shot MAYBE 100 rounds a day. I'll also point out that broken fingers were common injuries, safety gear consisted of a pair of shop goggles/glasses, and your gun was good to go if it didn't blast the bark off of a nearby tree when you shot-it. Yeah... good-old-days.

When Semi's came on the scene, guess what, people moaned and complained then too, the very same type of people who moan and complain when ever the 'common masses' gain affordable access to what was previously only for the privilaged and only at great expense.

When the pace of the game has changed so dramatically.

When the firepower the average player can afford has increased so much.

When the hard earned skills which made an old player successfull are no longer as effective as they once were.

When more emphasis is placed on the "appropriate look" for the average player.

When it's common belief that in order to be an "appropriate player" you must conform to certain behavioral patterns.

When it's suddenly a very different game than when you started playing and you look back on fond memmories of those early days and you are faced with the truth of the matter. That the game has changed, for better or worse, it has changed. The skills needed to be successfull have changed. And there's no way it can ever go back to the way it once was.

I don't care who you are, where you come from, or what you do for a living. There's always something, SOMETHING, that you feel so strongly about that if challenged will cause fear.

So, I will reitterate, possibly more concisely this time. What the Vets, who are adverse to the current state of the game, fear is change and indifference.

Please understand that in making gross generalizations it is important to understand the context of the generalization. In this case, the introduction of the Ion and the ready accessability of it to the masses because it has been priced to directly thrust at the heart of the firepower arms gap. There are those who have no desire to enter into such a fray.

Playing in large format games is a choice, and a choice which minimizes differences in firepower by providing more targets than any reasonable ammount of firepower can hope to overpower. The day of the Pistolero on a modern tournament field is long since dead. The day of the Mech Semi on a modern tournament field is all but gone.

Mr. Smith, you haven't adapted your game to the modern face of what is considered to be competative (tournament) paintball. You've chosen a format which allows you to play in a manner which is consistent with how you like to play and with the tools which you are most comfortable. I highly doubt you can lane very effectively with a 10 shot pistol. In all reality playing with 10 shot pump/semi pistols is very close to the heart of the roots of the game. However, as you've pointed out, the roots are dead compaired to the bleeding edge of where the sport is.

And guess what, there's nothing wrong with choosing to play in any format. That's why multiple formats exist. There's something for everyone in this day and age of paintball.

And why on god's green earth was this thread rezzed?

[doc_Zox]

Tom Kaye > William Gardner

Aaron K Alexander > Adam Gardner


Smartparts = crap

[UNCWShadowhound]

I haven't read through all of the posts, but from what I've seen:
I'm not really bothered by what kind of gun someone is using. I do frown upon the loudmouths (and these are usually newcomers) who show off some high end gun and try to act as though they're "Hot stuff" on the field. I just feel that it promotes an unsportsmanlike attitude that can lower the amount of fun everyone else came to have. Well... I have my own soultion for this. Instead of using my 'mag, I pull out my old 68-Carbine. When they get taken out by that, then they aren't as obnoxious anymore. The effect will really be potent if I can get better at playing with my PMI-1 pump gun.

[sol tank]

the ion is the SRT-4 of the paintball world.
Cheap but still good...
but everyone that owns it thinks they are the best

[shorty24]

but everyone that owns it thinks they are the best

I think maybe you're overgeneralizing a bit? I own an Ion. I'm not afraid to admit it. Heck, it's even been a fairly decent gun so far IMO. But I don't think I'm the best. In fact, I know I can get better, and how good I am/am not at paintball has nothing to do with what marker I choose to shoot. It has to do with hard work, practice, and having fun.

Maybe there are others out there who can identify with me here: the Ion to me was a godsend. I just started college this year, and grew up paying my own way for everything. I started working at a celery farm when I was 12, and have been working part/full time ever since. So naturally, I'm paying my own way through college, trying not to go into debt. I love paintball, but we all know its an expensive sport. I was forced to sell my hypermag (which had so much love and money into it...*sniff* I think I might cry... ), and most of my other paintballing equipment. But when the Ion came out... Hey, I was never a big fan of SP, and probably never will be. But the Ion gave me a chance to restore myself somewhat to the level of playing I was used to, and was WAY cheaper than a mag w/ the same performance. I know a lot of ppl think its reliability is/will be an issue, but I haven't had problems yet, and anyway, IMO it's already payed itself off.

I WILL be buying another mag when funds allow (or, when I just finally break down from not owning a mag for so long), but for the time being, I think the whole "the ION suxxors b/c it's a plastic pile of cr@p" mentality is BS.

/am 19, have been playing for 5 years, so I'm not TOTALLY ignorant...
//I know there are better markers out there, and everyone has their preference, and is entitled to their own opinion; I just get sick of this constant trashing of Ions and those who use them.
///my rant for today...

[Pyroboy597]

I own and use an ion, and it is a great gun.

Overshooting, atleast in my person experiences, does not only occur with 'kids with AGG guns'. I have had multiple times where a guy that was three times as old as me just shot me till I had to go into the fetal position (not really ). I took atleast 20 balls from a guy with an A5 with the whole E-bolt setup. Dang guy was hidiing in a bush wearing camo on an 'all natural' speed ball field and I ran by him.. did not even see him and he just destroyed my back. I got overshot by a guy at his bachelor party, but it was REALLY intentional so I fired back.. (Guy ramped me from like 15 feet away in the chest), Of course, there have been the times where a kid using the gun his daddy just bought him because he got a 'B' on his Vocabulary test just decided to act up, but I really believe that in the games I have played in, which is quite a few (been playing consistantly for 5 years) I have been overshot by more people older than me than younger (I am 16)

[AutomagRT1483]

I'm not afraid of them. Heck, I embraced the 21st century and joined them, unlike some(not all) "vets" here.

Ditto.

[REDRT]

The argument of a cheap gun like the ION in the hands of a young kid that may be inmature and bonus balling every one because he can ramp is a crock. Plenty of adults do the same darn thing with their upity up markers. Oh and things like, "the good ol' days". I can tell you horror stories about the "good ol' days" that doesn't happen in this day and age. Even with ramping markers and kids on ritalin for some A.D.D. As it was in the begining as it is today. Someone gets out of line reguardless of age, color or creed. They will get it handed right back. A perfect game with checks and balances. Pick your marker, shut your mouth and play your game. Very simple phylosophy that works.