Airball Sucks

[tyrion2323]

I'm not saying that there is no movement in speedball. However, there is less of an emphasis on it. In a single game very few players make more than a couple moves. There are FAR fewer places to move to... Speedball is "all" about shooting. If you shoot very well you do fine in speedball even if you "move" very poorly. The reverse is not true.

As I said earlier, if you want to define movement solely as the amount of space covered, then there's no argument. But I will absolutely argue that you're wrong with your assessment that speedballers don't have to move. That's simply not true, and this is reflected in the outcome of games. Teams with well coordinated movements win games more often than not. Sometimes staying in a bunker is the smartest move to make, but you will never find a team winning the NPPL or PSP events without moving from their primary bunkers.

[hitech]

Actuall,. I don't think we disagree all that much. For lack of a better phrase I would use the number of times a player moves as the measure of movement.

I am not trying to say that Speedballers do not move. Nor am I trying to say that movement is not at all important in speedball. I am saying that it is less important than shooting ability. Also, that movement is less Important in speedball than in woodsball. If you had two teams play each other. One team was great at shooting and poor at moving. The other team was great at moving and poor at shooting. If they played each other would you not agree that the first team would win most of the time?

Speedball, as it is played today on small fields is the firefight distilled out of the larger game. Given that, what was left out?

[etjoyride]

Hey yourself. Notice that in no way did I say what you're claiming I said. I'm saying that it's not inherently bad for parents to help their children out with sports gear. Listen, i know what it's like to have to buy my own paintball gear - i've been doing it for ten years. Reread my original statement, and then rethink yours.

Alright, i went back and re-read your statement..My mistake, you were right. My bad

I can't believe this thread isstill open honestly.

[hipster]

actually movement is one of the keys to airball most teams that win are ones that not only play as a team but are able read the field good enough so that one will be able to make that all import run into to other side and eliminate a couple of key bunkers by "flanking" them -opening up the field so the rest of the team can in turn move up , if go into a game only pick one bunker and sit there you've already lost the game

you should have at least two moves in mind , work twords getting there and communicating one side ( say the "doritos")makes small moves and holds the field the other ( "snake side") makes bigger riskier ones and pushes the field

and thats where the true thinking and reading a field is key the wrong move or one to soon/late and you just lost ,

I play at fied that div 2,1 and pro's practice/play at and they all like mixing it up and playing against any one willing, even those like me who are novice, and have played some div 3, and let me tell you playing against a pro player is not about how much paint you shoot or how fast you gun is, thinking that way gets you gogged every time

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Mmmm, semantics....

/sigh

[Automaggot68]

Mmmm, semantics....

/sigh

Lol.

/roguefactor

[warbeak2099]

I'm not saying that there is no movement in speedball. However, there is less of an emphasis on it. In a single game very few players make more than a couple moves. There are FAR fewer places to move to... Speedball is "all" about shooting. If you shoot very well you do fine in speedball even if you "move" very poorly. The reverse is not true.

Uh no, if you move into a crappy bunker that's in a crappy position, you're pretty screwed. You have to know how, where, and when to move. For instance, instead of running in a striaght line towards a bunker off the break, it's better to run in an elliptical path towards the bunker. Instead of moving into a crappy, isolated bunker, it's a lot smarter to get into a position where you can be covered by your teammates, and where you can move to a better position as the game progresses.

[Gladiators21]

Each to his own I suppose...
The arguement comes down to who enjoy hiding, camoflauging themselves, playing long games with tons of people and for a lot "killing the enemy".
The others perfer their flashy guns, paint throwing, intense fast play, and just near the oppisite of what woodsballers like.

Im sure this has been said tons of times...I just felt like saying it again

[mobsterboy]

i know we arent supposed to say it, but i miss the old agd banners for x valve and ule bodies. The google banners are crap

[Aslan]

i'm continually perplexed by the ideas that linger around these boards, and how otherwise rational people can subscribe to them. I only hope that you're joking. An accuracy point system? How would you even apply that?

Ahh! I'm so glad you asked. I call it, the "Galaga System"! Galaga is a game that people played when you were little. But that,s not important...it's just the name. So here's how it works. You have two differnet kinds of paintballs...one for each team (assuming two teams). Before the game, everyone goes up to this little machine and holds their hopper under it...the ref presses a button...out comes 200 paintballs. The ref writes down the players number...the player goes in. Then, after the game, the players dump their paintballs back into the machine and it counts them. Sort of like the machine that counts change at the bank. All you have to do is look at kills vs. paintballs used and you got an accuracy score. Maybe you give a certain bonus to the team that wins...just so a team can't shoot out one guy a claim a victory...and there ya go. That's just off the top of my head though.

Is that to say that the backplayers, whose jobs include increased firepower for suppression and laning in order to decrease movement - should they be penalized because they are able to perform their jobs well?

No...they should be penalized because they shot 1300 rounds and never hit anybody. You can call that suppression or laning...but it doesn't impress me. Have you ever considered that maybe the game would be imporved without that tactic? I'm not saying the tactic isn't effective...but wiping is effective... My point is, maybe the game would be better if those back players were forced to move around a little.

You say that the reasons holding us back are that kids want to shoot fast guns, and that fields survive on paint sales. Well, you're partially right. Fields do survive on paint sales. Is that such a bad thing? Without fields, where could we play paintball? Where could we have well-groomed fields, referees, chronograph gear and tournaments? I'm sorry, but the idea of playing rebel-ball in the woods doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not anti-field...and I don't want to revive the old "paint costs too much" thread...but it is my opinion that fields can make money on reasonable paint sales and registration...the volume would be made up by having more players playing rather than more paint sold to fewer players.

Accuracy is only a part of the game, and especially with paintballs, accuracy doesn't always mean what people think it means.

What do people "think it means?" I think it means you walk on a small airball field with a hopper...and you and your team walk off with balls still left in their hopper and the other team eliminated. Or maybe it means "one shot, one kill"...who knows? But I'd rather strive for accuracy than bps...I think it's more fun and better for the sport in the long run.

[tyrion2323]

Ahh! I'm so glad you asked. I call it, the "Galaga System"! Galaga is a game that people played when you were little. But that,s not important...it's just the name. So here's how it works. You have two differnet kinds of paintballs...one for each team (assuming two teams). Before the game, everyone goes up to this little machine and holds their hopper under it...the ref presses a button...out comes 200 paintballs. The ref writes down the players number...the player goes in. Then, after the game, the players dump their paintballs back into the machine and it counts them. Sort of like the machine that counts change at the bank. All you have to do is look at kills vs. paintballs used and you got an accuracy score. Maybe you give a certain bonus to the team that wins...just so a team can't shoot out one guy a claim a victory...and there ya go. That's just off the top of my head though.

No...they should be penalized because they shot 1300 rounds and never hit anybody. You can call that suppression or laning...but it doesn't impress me. Have you ever considered that maybe the game would be imporved without that tactic? I'm not saying the tactic isn't effective...but wiping is effective... My point is, maybe the game would be better if those back players were forced to move around a little.

That plan is unsustainable for several reasons. As sure as I am that speedballs would be perfectly happy to wait in line before and after the game to collect and deposit their designated paint loads, I'm sure there must be a FEW reasons that this plan is ridonkulous. Here are just a few, "off the top of my head"

- First of all, there's the sheer time factor. Tournaments take long enough as it is, but add in a potential 3+ minutes of pre-game paint distribution and 5+ minutes of post-game calculations, and you're talking a 10 minute game minimum (including an average 2 minute game).

- Secondly, how do paint sponsors react to this? And what happens when two teams sponsored by the same paint company play head-to-head? Suddenly there's a burden not only on the players, but on the sponsors to create many different fill lines in order to compensate for all possible match-ups.

-Again, you're missing the point of a backman. A backman isn't meant to 'snipe' and use 'one-shot, one-kill' tactics. That just isn't the way the game is played, nor does it make sense in modern tournament paintball. More than likely, a backman is using his stream of paint and dominance on the field in order to not only suppress opponents and protect zones, but also to force opponents to make moves that they don't want, look out alternative sides of their bunkers, and depreciate their opponents' field awareness. For this reason, accuracy is measured not in the amount of balls shot, but in the effectiveness of hte game plan. If a backman is able to do these things, no matter how much paint he does or doesn't use, he is an effective backman. This takes WAY more talent than simply 'spraying and praying,' as it involves coordination, communication, confidence, field awareness, tectical zoning, and many other skills that non-tournament players rarely develop in the sense that tournament players do. It doesn't have to 'impress you' in order to be a legitimate and effective form of play. And believe it or not, but wiping and cheating both find their origins in woodsball and even stock class paintball.

- In terms of 'improvement' (since you mention it several times). I urge you to reconsider your idea of improvement. What YOU want is not necessarily improvement. Improvement can only be measured on an individual, subjective scale. Many people would say that faster guns and more stable equipment are improvements, and then some detest these progressions. And furthermore, since you seem to enjoy military allusions (one-shot-one-kill, and accuracy) I would urge you to take a look at modern warfare tactics. Suppression is HUGE in urban warfare, and is used to ensure safe movement and placement of troops on the battlefield. In a sense, speedball is simply the urban incarnation of paintball, and will develop similarly to urban combat, including all of the 'upgrades' or 'improvements' that come with it.

I'm not anti-field...and I don't want to revive the old "paint costs too much" thread...but it is my opinion that fields can make money on reasonable paint sales and registration...the volume would be made up by having more players playing rather than more paint sold to fewer players.

Your comment is unsubstantiated. Unless you can provide real evidence that this will happen, and that the game would be accepted by speedballers, then the argument over what fields should and shouldn't do is up to the field owners. What I do know, from working and playing at several fields, is that paint makes up the bulk of profits. Rental gear only goes so far in terms of profits, and entrance fees discourage players from frequenting fields.

What do people "think it means?" I think it means you walk on a small airball field with a hopper...and you and your team walk off with balls still left in their hopper and the other team eliminated. Or maybe it means "one shot, one kill"...who knows? But I'd rather strive for accuracy than bps...I think it's more fun and better for the sport in the long run.

I think that people mistake pure accuracy for talent. I can put shot after shot on top of each other from the end of the field, if need be, but that certainly isn't going to win the game. The added factors that paint frequently bounces or doesn't break, along with the relatively slow speed of paintballs means that accuracy in its traditional sense doesn't work on its own. And who's to say that backmen who shoot 1300 balls per game aren't accurate? Are they hitting their targets and accomplishing their goals? many are. Placing a stream on top of itself on a bunker or in a zone or lane is perfectly representative of accuracy in the context of airball and speedball.


The problem with saying that teams should walk off the field with remaining paint in their hoppers is that you're pushing your ideal vision of paintball onto the rest of us, and then saying that it's for the best, or at least would be better for the sport in the long run. Again, I ask for proof of that statement. What designates something being better or worse for the sport? I don't personally see military-style paintball as being particularly 'good' for the sport, considering that it conjurs up images of rednecks, ex-military and war-wackos 'playing war' in the middle of the woods; however, that doesn't mean I criticize woodsball and try to reform how it's played. It doesn't even sound like you care to play speedball, especially not tournament speedball, so why try to change how it's played right now? Remember, speedball evolved out of the woods. It marks a logical progression for people who want fast-paced paintball. Even Tom Kaye strived for speed, creating the response-trigger, bringing constant-air into the game, introducing the 6-Pak stock class changer, bringing the Warp feed (at the time paintball's fastest loader), and even bringing into existence Hybrid mode on his emags and xmags. People naturally lean towards speed, even in the 'golden old days' that so many people on these boards talk about.

The end result is that this is never going to make it beyond this forum. Paintball is a great game, no matter the type or style that you play. There will always be haters and complainers who want to change paintball into their own vision of what's good and bad. The bottom line is that we all need to pursue our own interests within the game. Want airball without the laning? Try stock class paintball. It's making quite the comeback. Want to dress up in camouflage and play war? That can be done as well. For those who want speedball-style tournament paintball, this is found in the NPPL, NEPL, PSP, CFOA and other leagues like this.

[Lohman446]

Accuracy is overrated

Last year in the finals at OGD I came up on a move that was unseen, with two players that made perfect targets, I put a couple balls on each, moving my target quickly before I had verified breaks. It was a mistake, in that the paint was extremely bouncey, and neither broke. I lost the advantage of surprise and if I had to put it down to a single error that cost Team AO first place I would put it on that single error.

Two weeks ago at tournament I made a move, with strong support from a back tape player, that put me lateral to two opposing players, neither of which knew I was there. When I came up I put shots on the first one until I had seen multiple breaks before switching targets and repeating on the second. In an accuracy system I would have penalized for it - the only difference in the two scenarios was the amount of paint used... not even accuracy.
My backplayer in this case who made the move possible by keeping someone from coming out one side of a bunker, would have been penalized, and without him I could have never made the move.

There are often lanes of paint in the air for a reason other than elimination... its what allows the strategy of speedball. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about the mass of paint in the air are often the same people who question if there is strategy involved.

[Aslan]

My unsubstantiated universe

That plan is unsustainable for several reasons...

I'm sure players could adjust to an extra 3 minutes.

-Again, you're missing the point of a backman.

No I'm not. I understand their effectiveness...which I said like 3 times...soI'll say it again...in the standard way speedball is played...the backman is effective. My point was "what if" the backman couldn't do that? People play airball with pumps, stock class...does the backman sit back there emptying pod after pod? "What if"...the backman had limited ammo and needed to move...that's all I was saying.

In terms of 'improvement' (since you mention it several times). I urge you to reconsider your idea of improvement. What YOU want is not necessarily improvement. Improvement can only be measured on an individual, subjective scale. Many people would say that faster guns and more stable equipment are improvements, and then some detest these progressions.

Don't worry...my posting an idea on this forum, believe it or not, is not an automatic rule change to any paintball field or league. I know I'm brilliant and everything...but believe it or not...some people don't think so and I've not yet been offered the position of "King of Paintball" so I don't "yet" have the ability to make my rule changes. I'll let ya know when I get promoted...you can cry then.

Your comment is unsubstantiated. Unless you can provide real evidence that this will happen, and that the game would be accepted by speedballers, then the argument over what fields should and shouldn't do is up to the field owners. What I do know, from working and playing at several fields, is that paint makes up the bulk of profits. Rental gear only goes so far in terms of profits, and entrance fees discourage players from frequenting fields.

Yup...I certainly can provide proof...let me get my crystal ball...I had it here somewhere... I can't find it, why don't you get out yours and show me how it wouldn't work? Suddenly every post must be substatiated? Holy Poo! Do owl pictures and smiles count towards substantiation? Is there a way to attach an Excel sheet to the post...because I have all the numbers in an Access database...could I download em directly? I'll check into that...NOT. What I do know from playing at several fields is that the biggest complaints involve refs and paint prices. Nobody cares if their field fee goes from $15 a day to $20 a day. But when their forced to buy the same paint for $80 that they can buy online for $45... ...that bugs em a little. Like I said, I'm not getting into that war...last time I did Lohman pulled out his field accounting ninja tactics and tried to beat me to death...it was not pretty but I made my point there and it's the same as here...I tend to choose a BYOP field over a FPO field whenever possible. I will play an FPO field if it's part of an event or if they have low gate fees and free all-day air...but FPO is definitely a big negative for me and the people I play with....my opinion...not Lohman's...apparently not yours...whatever.

too long...

[Aslan]

continued

I don't personally see military-style paintball as being particularly 'good' for the sport, considering that it conjurs up images of rednecks, ex-military and war-wackos 'playing war' in the middle of the woods; however, that doesn't mean I criticize woodsball and try to reform how it's played. It doesn't even sound like you care to play speedball, especially not tournament speedball, so why try to change how it's played right now?

Whatever...not entering that flame war-O-Rama...I'll just say that the bulk of paintball players play woodsball...and the people that get offended by it...well, I haven't met any. I thnk that's a myth personally...or maybe some anti-paintball parent said that...I don't know. To answer your question, personally, I'd like to see it changed for one reason and one reason only. If it was played a little different, with less emphasis on bps...I think it would attract more players (unsubstantiated..still waiting for the data on that ). As an example, I'll use myself. I would love to play airball...and have. If my friends weren't lame...I might even considering getting a little 3-man team together. But if in doing so, I need to make a $2000 investment in equipment and use 16 cases of paint per tourney...it becomes highly unrealistic...for me and for lots of others. Would we love to get out on the field and compete? Sure. But when novice tournaments (and beginner tournaments) are dominated by high end equipment with ROF that use up cases and cases of paint...it becomes difficult for many players to enter that scene...which could be a HUGE growth area for the sport because airball is so much more convenient to set-up than maintaining woodsball fields. That's my opinion anyways.

Paintball is a great game, no matter the type or style that you play. There will always be haters and complainers who want to change paintball into their own vision of what's good and bad. The bottom line is that we all need to pursue our own interests within the game. Want airball without the laning? Try stock class paintball. It's making quite the comeback. Want to dress up in camouflage and play war? That can be done as well. For those who want speedball-style tournament paintball, this is found in the NPPL, NEPL, PSP, CFOA and other leagues like this.

We can agree on that. I'll notify the various leagues and tell them not to go through with the changes I've talked about on this forum.

[Lohman446]

Just for the record, you want to see annoyed I was annoyed at FPO IAO at $80 a case for cheap paint (or whatever it was). I'm ok with FPO at a reasonable price, but when fields take advantage of it, well I tend not to play there. Ok, face it, I only play at one field except for tournments, and I have no problems with things that are done there. As it is, I have a hard time empathising with those who have problems where they play.