The Pledge of Allegiance Unconstituitonal

[obsolete898]

You aren't grasping the concept that the word God does not just apply to catholics

You're not grasping what I am saying. I never said it only applied to catholics, and if you capitalize the G then yes it is the god of christians. Maybe I'm saying this in the wrong way. This whole thing is about perseption and the conotation that a word has. When you say Allah you automatically think Muslim, not The arabic word for god. Even when speaking english Allah is still used.

I'm arguing this point from a purly secular point of view, my beliefs have no play in this. I belive that there is only one god by what ever name. But from a worldly view, if one religion states that they don't believe in this "god" in the same way as another religion, then it now becomes a differant god. This is in a purely semantical form. If Jews do not belive that Jesus is the son of god and is part of the trinity, then in a purley analitical and semantic form it is a diferant god. Now yes I do believe it is one God, but in an argument of dogmatictic law it would be differant.

Now here is the basis of what I am trying to argue. The "Under god" does not have a place in the PoA. For the reason that people should not have to proclaim thier allegiance to thier country under a diety they have no belief in. That's it that's all I'm saying. Yes I do think we should pledge our allegiance, yes I belive in being grateful to this country. I think I know about being grateful, if you missed it I'm in the USAF.

[FatMan]

Yeah, get one of these religious/political discussion going and ALL kinds of BS comes out:

Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity and also many other things that actually go AGAINST base core Christianity.. such as praying to Mother Mary, using Priests to ?talk? to God and be forgiven, etc.

yer confused, dude!

Anyway, my take on this is pretty much the same as my take on the whole thing with that guy with the cigar - who was that - oh yeah, Clinton - anyway, why the hell are our courts and government officials wasting time with stupid petty *bovine scatological referrance* like this when there are serious issues that need to be addressed?

Let's face it, the pledge was instituted in recent years due to a fear of anti-Americanism, the "under God" was added later during a period of civil unrest when being atheist was associated with being a "commie". "In God We Trust" was added to currency many years after the start of our country. The founding Fathers weren't highly religeous, they were businessmen who faced financial ruin if they didn't find a way to create a government that worked but didn't offend the fiercely independent American populace.

Realistically, the references to God on currency and in the PoA should be removed. Realistically, if they aren't, who gives a rats hiney? If you are a true Atheist, why do you care what the other children say in school? What do you care if a prayer is said before a ball game? You don't. Not unless you are working for some press attention.

Realistically the who PoA could go away and that wouldn't matter too much either. If you are true to your country, you don't need a pledge to prove it - and if you are not, saying a the pledge means nothing. They are words, words for a fearful people who are trying to prevent anyone with a view different from their own to gain any sort of position over them.

You may or may not have a variety of opinions about what I just said, but I tell you this: I love my country, and I never have and never will be untrue to it AND I love my God with all my heart, all my mind, and all my soul. Now you can stand there and tell me I'm wrong until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the one inescapable conclustion:

This whole discussion is rediculous!

FatMan

Sorry Army, I know it is no excuse, I just got riled up. I'll be extra good for a while, OK?

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan

[obsolete898]

FatMan hath spoketh, and it is good. Fatman you are completely correct.

[Kaiser Bob]

This is an excerpt from the Everson v. Board of Ed. case in 1947 where the Supreme Court first gave a definition to the Establishment clause:

"Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force. . . a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will, or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."

Now its not so much that the gov't is forcing anyone to say the PoA now, but the fact that that you have to subscribe to a belief in order to say a pledge of allegiance (integrating chruch and state). Especially when it comes to schools (impressionable minds), the Supreme Court has gone to great lengths to ensure the gov't does not inadvertantly enstill any type of religious belief, as it is specifically not the gov't responsibility to do so.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by FatMan
Yeah, get one of these religious/political discussion going and ALL kinds of BS comes out:



yer confused, dude!

Anyway, my take on this is pretty much the same as my take on the whole thing with that guy with the cigar - who was that - oh yeah, Clinton - anyway, why the hell are our courts and government officials wasting time with stupid petty *bovine scatological referrance* like this when there are serious issues that need to be addressed?

Let's face it, the pledge was instituted in recent years due to a fear of anti-Americanism, the "under God" was added later during a period of civil unrest when being atheist was associated with being a "commie". "In God We Trust" was added to currency many years after the start of our country. The founding Fathers weren't highly religeous, they were businessmen who faced financial ruin if they didn't find a way to create a government that worked but didn't offend the fiercely independent American populace.

Realistically, the references to God on currency and in the PoA should be removed. Realistically, if they aren't, who gives a rats hiney? If you are a true Atheist, why do you care what the other children say in school? What do you care if a prayer is said before a ball game? You don't. Not unless you are working for some press attention.

Realistically the who PoA could go away and that wouldn't matter too much either. If you are true to your country, you don't need a pledge to prove it - and if you are not, saying a the pledge means nothing. They are words, words for a fearful people who are trying to prevent anyone with a view different from their own to gain any sort of position over them.

You may or may not have a variety of opinions about what I just said, but I tell you this: I love my country, and I never have and never will be untrue to it AND I love my God with all my heart, all my mind, and all my soul. Now you can stand there and tell me I'm wrong until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the one inescapable conclustion:

This whole discussion is rediculous!

FatMan

Sorry Army, I know it is no excuse, I just got riled up. I'll be extra good for a while, OK?

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan

You missed the point, I'm not religious, I could care less about 'under god', I was just correcting someone who was clearly wrong about the connotation of god. My beef is with the fact that now the pledge of allegenance is not to be said at all. Friggin ridiculous.

[obsolete898]

I was just correcting someone who was clearly wrong about the connotation of god

I guess you corrected me. Personally I don't think that you insulting me and calling me ignorant corrected much of anything.

[ThePatriot]

Well, look at it this way, lets assume, you were a father, and had 2 sons in school. You were both Catholic(you and your wife) and didnt want to give them a very formal Catholic school education, how would you feel if they taught something contradictory to your religion? For instance, the teaching of evolution, how many problems has that caused in the country? A lot..

It is the same thing in work here, a parent didnt want their child to believe something, if one says under god, and so does every other person in school, and around them, they will develop the idea there is a god. Now if this is bad or not, is up to the people looking at it. However the father just didnt want his child to grow up thinking something that went against his beliefs, any of you would have felt the same way.

[davidb]

(Deity of your choice) forbid that he should just talk to his daughter and teach her his beliefs instead of filing a lawsuit. Oh well, it's the American Way.

[Kaiser Bob]

Its easier if they just take it out, it wont harm anyone if those two words werent there and it worked fine till 1954.

[ThePatriot]

Well, if its so harmless, how come we cant just take it out? You religious people are all saying, why do you care? Cant you just say "under god?" Well, cant you just not hear it?

[AngelBoy]

Does it really matter either way. The guy could have just tried to teach his daughter what he believed instead of going through all the trouble of trying to have it removed. He just wants some fame. Wouldn't it just be easier to leave it in instead of going through and changing it? How would you really get EVERYBODY to know that it changed? ThePatriot, youre right, it really wouldn't be very bad to take it out, but like I said before its just easier to leave it in.

Think about if they did take it out. You go to a football game, everybody stands for the PoA. They get to that part and half of the people don't know that its taken out. So half the stadium says it and the other half doesn't. Everybody gets off-beat, makes it sound real wierd. Makes it sound disrespectful. Then everybody gets mad at each other for either leaving that part out or saying it when ur not suppossed to. Everybody starts fighting. It keeps getting more violent. People start killin each other. The headline the next day reads: "The Pledge of Alliegence killed 200 people yesterday at a football game".

Sorry, I just had to throw somethin like that in. And before you ask, no, I really don't think that would happen.

[Havoc_online]

how will it look for the politican who trys to remove "under god" and "in god we trust" from everything when 95% of the country(therefore the voters) believe in "God". It will never be removed for the simple true that our country was founded on it's belief and that too many ppl still feel the same way. The only thing that I think would ever happen in an attempt to plz everyone is that someone move to get it officially announced that you may enter your own belief if it's "god" or not in any saying, or simply announce that "god" does not have to mean the father of Jesus, or so on and so forth but is the higher being of the person. Anyone who doesnt believe in "god" should'nt care.

[wyn1370]

Like stated before. It was added in, it can be taken out. I agree it would be a pain to take out. But only because so many people are against it being removed. And why are they against it, not because of how difficult it would be to change everything, but because they want it in there.
Added on: I don't believe in any said god. And true I wouldn't care. But since so many people are saying it belongs in there, it has gotten my attention. I do not believe we are one nation under god. So why don't I start adding in my own little edits to the PoA and make it better suit my own beliefs. And anyone who doesn't believe it can just not say that part.

[irbodden]

Originally posted by ThePatriot
Well, look at it this way, lets assume, you were a father, and had 2 sons in school. You were both Catholic(you and your wife) and didnt want to give them a very formal Catholic school education, how would you feel if they taught something contradictory to your religion? For instance, the teaching of evolution, how many problems has that caused in the country? A lot..

Yes, evoultion is a fact, but you would have to have very little faith to be turned away by evoultion. When studying evoultion, you should grow a DEEPER faith by learning the intricacy of god's most amazing creatures. There is NO way that a random big bang created life as we know it. My very own biology teacher got up on a soapbox last year and explained how many consider it a controversial subject [evoultion] however he as a science grad student and teacher for 20 years was NEVER turned away from god because of "Darwin". Patriot, if you turned away from God because of what you were told in your Freshman class as you scratched the surface of evoultion and the ideas of Darwin, I think you should reevaulate your ideas. Your just trying to be a rebel though I bet.. LOL


If you let the firstbook of the old testament, which belongs to the Hebrews- throw you away from God because of some science unit you studied for two weeks.. I feel sorry for you..

[ThePatriot]

Originally posted by irbodden
There is NO way that a random big bang created life as we know it.

Please do not be ignorant, you have no idea whether or not the big bang caused life as we know it. Also, i was giving an example, i never stated biology class changed my life and made me not believe in god. I was never brought up to believe in any of that, or go to church or anything like that.

I also find it extremely odd how a christian(im assuming) or any religious person for that manner, can believe in evolution. Unless i am VERY mistaken, christians believe the earth was formed roughly 6000 years ago, this goes against everything evolution teaches. Now, please, i didnt tell you, you were wrong with your beliefs, please do not tell me i am wrong with mine regarding the Big Bang.

And for the record, i didnt even study evolution in biology, because we all knew what it was. In NY it was on the regents exam, but everyone knew what it was so we reviewed genetics. Oh, and if evolution is a fact, and you religious members know that, then how come it has had so many issues in the southern states? Dont all you christians believe the same thing? It is the same religion isnt it? I know there are little differences, however i dont think there could be as big a difference as what created the human race.

I also do not like what evolution has become recently. From what i have heard, etc.. Evolution used to be despised by christians and catholics, however they started seeing more and more people believing in it, because it makes sense(as does religion to those who follow it.) They started saying evolution was god's way of explaining life..... About 1 year ago i didnt know 1 person who was religious and believed in evolution, now everyone i know believes in it.

Your teacher by telling you it has never turned him away from god was probably true, however you being in Illinois, and that being near the area where all the evolution debates are ioccuring, i am sure he was trying to reinforce religion. It is a fact the south/midwest s very religious, thats all, where i came from the area wasnt religious at all, its just a location thing. I can vouch for this in Florida, everyone is religious down here...

Fact of the matter is, we will never know, ever. The only people who will know if they were right are the religious people. If indeed you do go to Heaven, you can think to yourself, yep i was right this entire time. However if we do die, and thats it, only death, you will not be conscious or anything and never be able to think, wow, i was right.

Now, i believe most of the people here know what will, and what will not get this thread closed, it is very interesting so far. Please do not get it closed, i think talking about one's beliefs and comparing are fine, have to ask a mod. As long as you do not insult another's religion, or say they are dead wrong, it should be ok.