The Pledge of Allegiance Unconstituitonal

[MagMan5446]

Originally posted by AngelBoy

About prayer in schools: Silent prayer is still prayer. Nobody (including the teacher) would have to stand up and pray out loud. If there are people that dont believe in God(no matter how they spell it) then they could just simply be quiet and wish and hope for things.

Why do that? What good has EVER come from wishing and hoping? Or even praying? Never did a damn thing for me. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in a God.

God is who you believe he is. God can be Allah, Yaeyew, or whatever the hell you want to say he is. We know nothing more about "God" than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (or if you think I'm wrong)

[AngelBoy]

It was just a way to get prayer back in schools since so many people want it back, and I just think that would be a fine way to do it. I was just saying that the people that don't believe in anything can think or stare or whatever they choose. I don't think that it is very necissary(sp?) but if so many people want it back then what damage would it cause? But then again, the people that want it back in schools can just pray by thereselves or have prayer meeting. As for good things coming from praying, strange things happen and some people believe that it is from praying while others believe it is just natural.

[obsolete898]

Back to the evolution topic. Catholics can belive in evolution and still be true to thier religion. This because they have a contextual interpitation of the bible where as most (I pretty sure all) protestant religions have a literal interpitation of the bible.

That was one of Martin Luthers big complants with the Catholic church and why he left and subsequently started protestantism. He felt the bible was not important enough in Catholisism, and it needed to be the base of the religion. That and alot of other things is why he broke off.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
how will it look for the politican who trys to remove "under god" and "in god we trust" from everything when 95% of the country(therefore the voters) believe in "God". It will never be removed for the simple true that our country was founded on it's belief and that too many ppl still feel the same way. The only thing that I think would ever happen in an attempt to plz everyone is that someone move to get it officially announced that you may enter your own belief if it's "god" or not in any saying, or simply announce that "god" does not have to mean the father of Jesus, or so on and so forth but is the higher being of the person. Anyone who doesnt believe in "god" should'nt care.

Ok, yes at the moment it seems the majority support having those little words in there, but in a situation like this it cannot be majority rules. The fact is the majority can be aligned towards things that are wrong (slavery, racial discrimination/segregation) so in a case like this you have to look at the constitutional aspect, not just what most people want.

[AngelBoy]

Does saying "under God" really hurt anyone?

[beam]

**Takes a deep breath....must avoid a ban**

Ok. The pledge. One nation under God.
I'm not going to convince anyone one way or the other. I am just dissappointed in all the "theory/opinion slinging" that has been going on in this thread and claimed as fact.

Prayer in school. EVIDENCE shows the affects of removing it. Unless there are other societal issues that we can blame, that seems like a pretty easy one too.

Evolution. Aahhh the THEORY THEORY THEORY THEORY where scientist made monkeys of themselves. To state that Evolution is a fact is like me stating with total certainty that a T-Rex is yellow and blue. How do you know? Did you ever see one ALIVE?

The one thing that gives me goosebumps is that very recently (last couple of decades), scientist are really starting to admit the faults in Evo. THEORY. Too many holes, too many things unexplained. New terms that deal with origins are: INTELLIGENT Design, specified complexity, etc. So, when some teenage kid tries to tell me that evolution is fact....it's easy for me to dismiss it. Mainstream science/academia begs to differ.

[Kaiser Bob]

Adaptation and need-based mutation has been documented so you cant just say evolution is bunk and you cant prove it. Can you prove we were definitely apes? No, but that dosent mean the other instances of evolution that we can see can be dismissed.

[obsolete898]

Prayer in school. EVIDENCE shows the affects of removing it. Unless there are other societal issues that we can blame, that seems like a pretty easy one too.

There are many other societal issues that lead to our current state. Not just prayer in school. The main three reasons are the desensitization(sp) of children by the media, TV, and movies. Second is the fact that parents are taking less and less responsibility for thier actions and the actions of thier children. The last is an efffect of the other 2 but it is a snow ball effect. It is that kids are now having kids.

This is a visious circle, the only end to this is good parenting. Don't plop your kids in front of the tube for 4 hours, do something with them. Monitor the amount of violence and sex they are exposed to. Be responsible for the life you created. BE A GOOD PARENT (have any questions just ask Army or Shartly)

[ThePatriot]

Actually, never did I state evolution is at all fact, it is a theory, however microevolution has been documented and observed in today's society. An instance of this is the Peppered Moth in I believe it was England. Anyway, it has been proven that our DNA is I believe, might be mistaken 96% identical to a chimpanzee. We didnt descent from apes, chimps rather.

*Quote from Beam*
The one thing that gives me goosebumps is that very recently (last couple of decades), scientist are really starting to admit the faults in Evo. THEORY. Too many holes, too many things unexplained
*End Quote*

Well, too many things unexplained? Sounds a lot like you are implying it is faith based, which is the same as religion. So how can you say one faith based thing is more true than a different faith based thing is beyond me.

*Quote from Beam*
Evolution. Aahhh the THEORY THEORY THEORY THEORY where scientist made monkeys of themselves.
*End Quote*

Well, actually scientists didnt make monkeys out of themselves, monkeys made themselves into scientists. I dont see how you Beam, have the right to determine what is right, and what isnt. Am I the only one who realizes that some of the religious members posting here claim they are all right. Never once have i said, i am right. You know evolution could be totally wrong, however I find it unlikely, emphasis on I. I just think the religious people need to stop being so ignorant, this might seem like an insult, but i am going to give an analogy to try and explain this.

Let us say there is a question at hand. A white male and an African American Male are debating over what the answer is. Now if the white male were to say, i am right, he cannot be right because he is black and they are never right. That would be considered extremely ignorant wouldnt it, aside from racist of course. How is it any different when religious people refuse to admit they could be the least bit mistaken and look down upon people who do not believe what they believe. I respect other people's religions/beliefs, i admit, i could be wrong, i might even be wrong. I believe because of this it allows for a better position to analyze situations. Whereas some religious individuals, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.) I brought race into this because i am trying to use race as "religious belief."

I hope no one takes this as an insult, because i havent really intentionally flamed anyone. I wasnt referring to all religious people, i was merely saying those who are ignorant are hard to deal with. I am trying not to get this thread closed, and i think so far, personally I have done a good job for me, im always getting threads closed.

And even though i am only 16, i did not copy and paste that, i wrote it, just in the event someone thinks i copy and pasted it :)

[obsolete898]

Whereas the religion individual, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.)

I wouldn't go that far. I personally don't let my beliefs come into play discussions. Also alot of scientists have thier religious beliefs and they don't let it come into play.


But yes to many people do that.

[ThePatriot]

Yes, i am sorry once again, i keep forgetting to add "some." Making a stereotypical comment like that is ignorant on my half, let me fix it.

*edit* Fixed

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by ThePatriot
Let us say there is a question at hand. A white male and an African American Male are debating over what the answer is. Now if the white male were to say, i am right, he cannot be right because he is black and they are never right. That would be considered extremely ignorant wouldnt it, aside from racist of course. How is it any different when religious people refuse to admit they could be the least bit mistaken and look down upon people who do not believe what they believe. I respect other people's religions/beliefs, i admit, i could be wrong, i might even be wrong. I believe because of this it allows for a better position to analyze situations. Whereas the religion individual, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.) I brought race into this because i am trying to use race as "religious belief."

I hope no one takes this as an insult, because i havent really intentionally flamed anyone. I wasnt referring to all religious people, i was merely saying those who are ignorant are hard to deal with. I am trying not to get this thread closed, and i think so far, personally I have done a good job for me, im always getting threads closed.

Thats because most religious people are trying to stand up for what they believe in, and a lot of times they do take it too far. They stay close-minded because they think that if they think "ya know, he could be right" that they are doubting everything they have based their life on. And a lot of people believe that if they start doubting, they were never really true Christians and that they are going to Hell. So I do agree with you, but that is still not saying that I am going to back down from what I have said. I actually had a big paragraph typed out on one of my posts about how I could be wrong, but I went back and deleted it because I thoguht it would be too off-topic(which this thread is now).

[obsolete898]

It's not off topic it has just evolved.



Sorry I couldn't help myself

[beam]

Originally posted by obsolete898


...Not just prayer in school. The main three reasons are the desensitization(sp) of children by the media, TV, and movies

Aahhh but are these causes or symptoms? TV, movies, media were pretty decent at the time prayer was removed, SINCE then is when they have gone down hill. :)

Originally posted by obsolete898
This is a visious circle, the only end to this is good parenting. Don't plop your kids in front of the tube for 4 hours, do something with them. Monitor the amount of violence and sex they are exposed to. Be responsible for the life you created. BE A GOOD PARENT (have any questions just ask Army or Shartly)

AMEN! I completely agree with that! I am a father of 4...7years, 5, 3, 9mos(born 9/11/2001 of all days)

Patriot: You and I both know that I can never persuade/convince you of my BELIEFS. However, I have EXPERIENCED a relationship with the very one who created all things. So to me, it requires very little faith believ He intelligently design this cosmic ball of matter we call home. Not to mention, the One who created all things did pay us a little visit here about 2000 years ago. Both secular/non-secular historical accounts can attest to that. But as Obsolete898 points out, this IS a vicious cycle. And it is ultimately up to each one of us to decide what we believe and accept the consequences/blessings/whatever of that decision.

peace.

[AngelBoy]

Now, back to the topic of this thread:

Is the PoA unconstitutional? It is not any more than the Constution itself is. And no, that doesn't make it fair. I really don't see why saying "under God" is such a big deal, but since it is to someone else I'll try to talk about this. Nobody is really forcing anyone to believe in any certain way. They are not forcing anyone to say "under God". So is it really against the Constitution? No.

But it is unfair to put anything pertaining to any certain group into a national pledge. Its not a big crime or anything, its just not completely 100% fair. And something as important as the PoA or the DoI needs to be as close to 100% fair as it can be. So if you want to be incredibly technical about it, if you change the PoA, you should change the Constitution also.


The guy with the daughter is going to have to grow up and realize that when his daughter gets mature she will probably want to look into new things, religion being one of them. Hearing the words "under God" will really have no big effect on her or anyone else. If it is going to actually change something, then it is just going to prepare her for the constant nagging of all Christians that she is friends with to go to church, camp, Sunday school, etc with them. The guy was wrong IMO.

I'm trying to look at this in an athiest point of view so I dont get "ignorant" as ThePatriot pointed out. Now, lets to to STAY ON TOPIC.