Gutter ball for "Bowling for Columbine"! (long)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Smegma


"Chances are", how the heck do you know the chances. You're saying that the woman would rather go defenseless and risk death than using a gun, I doubt that.

There is a difference between defenseless and not having a gun. If you have a gun you better use it, if not you have just committed suicide, or just given the criminal a weapon and a purpose to kill you.

I wonder how those IRA members get their guns. I have a personal hatred of the IRA if you can't tell.

And no beside Army no one has answered the complete question.

[aaron_mag]

Russ-

I think that guns are different than cars. I am not saying that those that loan guns should be punished but bringing it up as a discussion point. Most gun owners I know are very respectable and have had training in safety. They have also had to register the gun. Should they then turn around and loan it to someone else? Of particular interest is when they loan someone a gun and they take disappear (as with the Washington Sniper)? Should the gun owner report the disappearance to the authorities? Again I don't know the answer just bringing up a point.

Smegma- My point is that people who enjoy guns don't really buy them purely for self defense. Otherwise one would be good enough but instead they typically buy several different types (much like paintball players). I think self defense is a limited argument for not having gun control. I don't believe in banning guns but it is not because of self defense.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

Miscue. Maybe the female had no means of protection around her. You assume that if she would of had a gun with her then everything would have been fine. But chances are the woman wouldn't even use the gun, and be in more trouble with it then without it.

That's the whole point! She has no means to protect herself. And it's not just 'she' but anyone who is unarmed and confronted by an attacker.

I am NOT assuming that having a gun would make things fine. Your words, not mine. This is like assuming a safety belt will keep you from getting killed in an accident. It is a protective measure intended to help you to preserve your life... but it is not and end-all solution.

Chances are she wouldn't use the gun? Why, because she is a woman? I won't entertain a comment on this.

Now, I agree that guns do not belong in the hands of people ill-equipped to use them... this includes men and women... and, this is OBVIOUS.

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You get into a "severe" head-on collision:

You have no seatbelt - You are DEAD!
You have a seatbelt - Chances of survival increased. Failure is possible.

You are skydiving:

You have no parachute - You are DEAD!
You have a parachute - Chances of survival increased. Failure is possible.

Someone is intent on killing you and your family in your home:

You have no gun - You are DEAD! Your wife is DEAD! Your kids are DEAD! The investigators get to scrape parts of your son's scattered pinkish-grey brain off the wall, collect the pieces of your dripping entrails in plastic baggies, and photograph a trail of blood across the kitchen floor that ends in a pool with your wife laying in it... a phone lays next to her but the 911 operator has only the sounds of rustling on her tape because your wife had too much blood in her lungs to even audibly gasp.

You have a gun - You and your family's chances of survival increase. Closed-casket funeral is still possible.

[aaron_mag]

Miscue-

As usual you give us a very strange but brilliant post. Don't know whether to be admire the precise logic of your posts or be disturbed by the gritty way you push your point home!

[Collegeboy]

If you have someone intent on killing you and your family then you fall into the vast vast vast minority of cases where this happens.

Ok but throwing out percentages on the slim chance that this happens what will happen because of this. If the guy is intent on killing you then he will, he will be prepared, and nothing you can do can stop him. You might get a shot off, but by the time you see him, he would have seen you and that is it.

Now on the off chance that a burglar enters your house with a gun what is going to happen if you pull out your gun. A gun fight will take place. Either you kill him or he kills you and your family. But if you don't bring a gun into the equation, you can call 911 and hide, then he will take your possessions, and leave. Now on the off chance that he finds you, you can be ready with a bat.

Are you willing to put your families life in danger for your need to have a gun for protection.

My comment was designated to the majority of people IMO. In the 2 seconds it takes for a criminal to reach you, how many people do you think can accurately shoot a gun and hit the criminal in the right area, and can even bring themselves to fire the gun. What happens if in the heat of the moment the finger switches the safety on (Or if you keep the safety on, what happens if you don't take it off).

There are too many factors involved in using a gun for me to trust the protection of my family with it. I know I can swing a bat at someone, I know there is no safety to mess with; I know I can hit them.


But again this is not the question I asked.

[Rooster]

"People in GB and Oz can own a gun yet most choose not to own one in their house for protection. People in Germany can own a gun (for sporting purposes) yet most choose not to use one for protection. Why?? Why are Americans so obsessed with the gun?? These are all questions which MM set out to answer in his documentary."


So becuase these people are dumb enough to bring a ball-bat to a gun fight, we should be a dumb? Why do we feel the need to own handguns? Becuase its the most powerful tool of self-defence we can legally get our hands on. Why settle for crap when you can have the best? Why do I have a gun? Becuase the law says a gun is the most powerful weapon I can legally own. So I'm not going to waste my time with a stick.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Rooster
"People in GB and Oz can own a gun yet most choose not to own one in their house for protection. People in Germany can own a gun (for sporting purposes) yet most choose not to use one for protection. Why?? Why are Americans so obsessed with the gun?? These are all questions which MM set out to answer in his documentary."


So becuase these people are dumb enough to bring a ball-bat to a gun fight, we should be a dumb? Why do we feel the need to own handguns? Becuase its the most powerful tool of self-defence we can legally get our hands on. Why settle for crap when you can have the best? Why do I have a gun? Becuase the law says a gun is the most powerful weapon I can legally own. So I'm not going to waste my time with a stick.

Read my above statement. What will the introduction of another gun do. It will create a gun fight. But without it, you might survive.

[Miscue]

I'm beginning to like your frequent mentioning of baseball bats. Although I disagree with your idea that baseball bats are a suitable substitute for firearms in self-defense, I have given it great consideration and now have pictures in my mind of people toting around Louisville Sluggers everywhere they go... with one in every room.

The example I gave is one situation, but it is sufficient to make my point clear because I've provided enough for any sensible person to follow my line of reasoning. The flag you are waving about is a banner for the fallacy of unnecessary precision. I cannot entertain you with every last possible way you could be killed and make use of a gun.

I will regardless provide a few more examples for giggles... all it does is remake the same point I've already made.

Let's adjust my originally proposed situation. You are not in a house, but instead in a tent on a camping trip. Even easier prey... in a dark campground with nylon walls instead of brick... or stucco as is my situation... and zippers instead of door knobs and dead bolts. Now... I suppose that they should get a 6-person tent, such that they have room to hide while the armed criminal does his thing. Better yet, maybe everyone should jump into the zippered pocket that hangs on the back wall. He won't think to look in there.

Or how about, you are parked at a Wendy's drive through, and you are stuck between cars. Thugs try to rob the drive thru window. Realizing that the security glass poses an obstacle, they decide to rob the people waiting in their cars instead. Now, these people are high on something... or maybe they are just unhappy about their last Happy Meal and have confused restaurants. Anyway... they decide to kill you because they think it gets rid of witnesses. What if you had a gun? Perhaps a different end to the story. BTW, if you'd like more examples so as to satisfy your complaint on low odds on particulars... there are many more fast food restaurants with drive-thrus that you can use to add to your list of numerous possibilites... although individually improbable.

Let's go for a change of pace... with an example where you were armed. You are pumping gas. A homeless man walks up to you with a knife and threatens to kill you if you do not give him your money. (Now, this is a real example that involves my dad... and no, he's not the guy with the knife). Instead you pull out a gun and tell him to get on the ground, spread his feet, and put his hands over his head, or you will shoot him - quite the reversal of roles. Note that he pulled out his gun, and not his baseball bat... although we have some nice $200 softball bats at home. Cops come, nobody gets hurt... guy goes to jail. My dad doesn't get carted off to the hospital in a bloody mess, and he still has his $20 for lunch money.

A similar one... real story involving a cousin and some crazy person on the road. You are driving to a funeral. You are at a red light and surrounded by cars... front and back. Your side mirror is shot, and shots are still coming from the car beside and behind you... You pull out your gun, and shoot the guy dead... who wasn't done shooting and had rounds left in his magazine... and additional magazines ready for reload. Unfortunately, you miss the funeral. Note that... my cousin did not bring his baseball bat with him... although I suppose he could have waved one around like Luke Skywalker until all rounds were spent... and then thrown it through the windshield and through the attackers heart... thus further demonstrating the lack of need for defensive firearms.

The point is... there is NO way for you to predict when, where, or if you will be in a situation where your life is in danger. There are times when, a firearm is THE ONLY WAY to defend yourself... and the alternative is to DIE having had no chance.

[Army]

My formal training with a baseball bat, was Little League in 1972.

My formal traing with a handgun, was Gunsite Training Center in 1984 (civilian defensive street combat training); US Army in 1988 (rifle, pistol, machine gun) I have scored expert with every weapon I have ever fired since joining the Army; All Army Championship Machine Gun Team '89-'90-'91; US Army Marksmanship Training Unit in 1991; and nearly 20 years af shooting Practical Pistol (speed draw, speed targets, scored against number of center mass hits, and number of steel plate targets downed, all against the clock). I regularly place in the top ten shooters in competition (out of 50-70 shooters), yet have never announced my intention of being "classed", nor of joining the international association of Practical competitors. This keeps me at amateur status in every competition I have ever been in.

That being said...WHY THE HELL WOULD I TRY TO RUN ACROSS MY BEDROOM WITH A BAT, TO STOP SOMEONE FROM SHOOTING ME?

That is the most assinine statement you have said YET! Or is that your OPINION?

Bah, I'm done with you. Go back to your fantasy world and play ball with yourself, I'm going shooting.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Miscue
I'm beginning to like your frequent mentioning of baseball bats. Although I disagree with your idea that baseball bats are a suitable substitute for firearms in self-defense, I have given it great consideration and now have pictures in my mind of people toting around Louisville Sluggers everywhere they go... with one in every room.

You like that image huh? Do you have Louisville Slugger stock? Should I buy some as well?

Actually that is a good idea. If ever we get close to gun control in this nation I'll have to buy baseball bat stock!

[Miscue]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


You like that image huh? Do you have Louisville Slugger stock? Should I buy some as well?

Actually that is a good idea. If ever we get close to gun control in this nation I'll have to buy baseball bat stock!

[Russ]

CB,

From you posts (ramblings) it's become apparent that YOU have a problem with the use of a firearm for self-defence. You can't understand or rationalize it. Keep that bat handy, like "the rest of the world"

Just one more time, let's hear the "question"

[shartley]

[Collegeboy]

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

Originally posted by Collegeboy
You guys are plain crazy, I just hope it doesn't get you killed one day if the odd chances come that you get robbed, or the even odder chance come that the robber is armed, and even the minuscule chances are that the robber has a gun.