WHY is everything made in China

[1stdeadeye]

No BS about it.

CB,

Better and more efficient the Chinese are not. Would you rather own a Chinese Car or a Cadillac? They do not play by the same rules. They do not have the same labor rules! They do not have ANY environmental restrictions. They have no unions.

The Chinese do well because of their ability to exploit these "advantages". If the US were unfettered and able to truly throw our economic weight around. We could put countries like China under by having an economic policy that penalized countries for not adhereing to the standards we demand at home. We do this in limited situations now. Why do you think that Mexican truckers are not allowed to haul cross country in America? Safety Standards!

The USA has given up too much of our authority to organizations like the WTO. Just my $0.02!

[beam]

Well, I don't want to get into a huge argument about economics and tariffs and cheap labor, so I will give you a real-world scenario that is happening to the company I work for.

It all hinges around 2 words: Global Outsourcing

The company that I work for was founded in 1911, in the great state of Iowa. They have always produced a QUALITY product. They are known as the Cadillac product in their industry. Within the last few years, there has been a huge push to cut costs. So, we started importing ready-made components because it was CHEAPER than making them in-house. That's right. We can import a component cheaper than having our own iron foundry pour the molds, and the shopp machine the part.

Now, we have just built a manufacturing facility in China so that these parts don't need to be shipped here for assembly but rather can stay in Asia and be assembled there for eventual sale there. That is where it will start, but I believe in the not-too-distant future, we will see China as a major source for products to be shipped worldwide and the local operation will get smaller and smaller.

Many of the employees are not happy about this new trend. They are hesitant to put our label on something made in China. And I agree. But how can we compete? Our salaries are waaaaaaay higher than those in China. We have unions, epa, osha, etc. There, they will make maybe a couple bucks a day.

So, why is everything made in China? Mostly money. It's all about $$$

And Collegeboy...you called China capitalism at its finest?????? No no no...they are communist remember? That is how you get sweat shops and abusive labor environments.

[Collegeboy]

Who makes more money Kingman, or AG. Can everyone and there brother afford a XMAG, or an RT Pro, or even a Classic. No. But just about anyone who gets in the sport can afford to pay 50 dollars or so and get a spyder classic or most of their guns. Could Kingman make their markers in the US, and still sell their guns for around 100. No, they would sell them for 250 or so, if not way more. Now when they bring that to the US and sell their guns for that price, their profit margin will be cut down to a point where they have to cut down operation to where it would be like AG's and all other quality gun manufactures. People would lose jobs; company would lose money, etc.... So hence the US has a comparative disadvantage to China in the production of paintball markers.

As to quality, the only way that matters is if people stop buying them because of the quality, and then the companies profits fall, then they might need to switch to the US to make more quality markers. But as long as their profit margins rise while still producing less quality items, then that country has the comparative advantage.

I am taking in all angels to this. That is why I say, cheap labor is a part of it, but it is not the only part, there are many reasons why. That is why the cheap labor argument is wrong.

But 1de, that doesn't matter, China still holds the comparative advantage in those products which they produce. Hence why they can produce the items with lesser inputs.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by beam
Well, I don't want to get into a huge argument about economics and tariffs and cheap labor, so I will give you a real-world scenario that is happening to the company I work for.

It all hinges around 2 words: Global Outsourcing

The company that I work for was founded in 1911, in the great state of Iowa. They have always produced a QUALITY product. They are known as the Cadillac product in their industry. Within the last few years, there has been a huge push to cut costs. So, we started importing ready-made components because it was CHEAPER than making them in-house. That's right. We can import a component cheaper than having our own iron foundry pour the molds, and the shopp machine the part.

Now, we have just built a manufacturing facility in China so that these parts don't need to be shipped here for assembly but rather can stay in Asia and be assembled there for eventual sale there. That is where it will start, but I believe in the not-too-distant future, we will see China as a major source for products to be shipped worldwide and the local operation will get smaller and smaller.

Many of the employees are not happy about this new trend. They are hesitant to put our label on something made in China. And I agree. But how can we compete? Our salaries are waaaaaaay higher than those in China. We have unions, epa, osha, etc. There, they will make maybe a couple bucks a day.

So, why is everything made in China? Mostly money. It's all about $$$

And Collegeboy...you called China capitalism at its finest?????? No no no...they are communist remember? That is how you get sweat shops and abusive labor environments.

It is all about the money, no one is debating that.

And China is not communist, and capitalism is slowly taking over there.

And no I did not call China capitalism in its finest. I said the survival of the fittest, the moving of production to China as capitalism in its finest.

[beam]

I'm sorry, you're right it's not communist, it's really a "dictatorial republic ruled by the Communist Party of China":

China is a country in East Asia. The main religions are confucianism and buddhism. The main language is Chinese (including the different religions). China became an united independent empire in 210 B.C.. The country is a dictatorial republic ruled by the Communist Party of China. Hong Kong and Macau have autonomy with a multi-party system. Tibet is occupied by China and incorporated in the country. After the civil war in the 1940's the nationalist government withdrew at the island of Taiwan where it formed the Republic of China.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
As to quality, the only way that matters is if people stop buying them because of the quality, and then the companies profits fall, then they might need to switch to the US to make more quality markers. But as long as their profit margins rise while still producing less quality items, then that country has the comparative advantage.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I am taking in all angels to this. That is why I say, cheap labor is a part of it, but it is not the only part, there are many reasons why. That is why the cheap labor argument is wrong.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But 1de, that doesn't matter, China still holds the comparative advantage in those products which they produce. Hence why they can produce the items with lesser inputs.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
And China is not communist, and capitalism is slowly taking over there.

And no I did not call China capitalism in its finest. I said the survival of the fittest, the moving of production to China as capitalism in its finest.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by beam
I'm sorry, you're right it's not communist, it's really a "dictatorial republic ruled by the Communist Party of China":

China is a country in East Asia. The main religions are confucianism and buddhism. The main language is Chinese (including the different religions). China became an united independent empire in 210 B.C.. The country is a dictatorial republic ruled by the Communist Party of China. Hong Kong and Macau have autonomy with a multi-party system. Tibet is occupied by China and incorporated in the country. After the civil war in the 1940's the nationalist government withdrew at the island of Taiwan where it formed the Republic of China.

If you knew (or Shartly knew) what communism was, then you would know that China is not communist, nor have they ever been.

We are talking about why companies move production to China, right. Because China can produce those products better, or more efficiently then the US in the minds of the profit minding executives. If they can make 2 dollars of a good by moving it to China, instead of making 1 dollar off it in the US, then China can make that good more efficiently, better, and give them a bigger profit.

That is what I am saying. The cheap labor is not what makes it cheaper to produce in China. Like you all said, the transportation cost alone would make it not worth it, so there has to be way more to it the cheap labor. If cheap labor was the reason, then it would not be efficient to produce in China. But like you all said, there are trade regulations that China doesn't have to follow, there are environmental standards that China doesn't have to follow, there are many things that make producing in China more efficient, and cheap labor is part but not the all inclusive answer like many tend to think.

If the 5000 soldiers can kill the 50 soldiers, then the 5000 are better. I am not talking about making an item better; I am talking about manufacturing better, i.e. cheaper with a better profit margin. Do you think most companies care if they produce a sub par item, as long as their profit rises, they don't care.

I didn't say China is a shinning star, maybe you need to read back. Capitalism is a brutally brutal system. It is survival of the fittest. A company, who produces good A in the US, more times or not, can not compete with a different company producing the same good A in China. Hence the one in the US goes under, for they were not the fittest. It is capitalism in its more brutal form, in its finest.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
If you knew (or Shartly knew) what communism was, then you would know that China is not communist, nor have they ever been.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
We are talking about why companies move production to China, right. Because China can produce those products better, or more efficiently then the US in the minds of the profit minding executives. If they can make 2 dollars of a good by moving it to China, instead of making 1 dollar off it in the US, then China can make that good more efficiently, better, and give them a bigger profit.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
That is what I am saying. The cheap labor is not what makes it cheaper to produce in China. Like you all said, the transportation cost alone would make it not worth it, so there has to be way more to it the cheap labor. If cheap labor was the reason, then it would not be efficient to produce in China. But like you all said, there are trade regulations that China doesn't have to follow, there are environmental standards that China doesn't have to follow, there are many things that make producing in China more efficient, and cheap labor is part but not the all inclusive answer like many tend to think.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
If the 5000 soldiers can kill the 50 soldiers, then the 5000 are better. I am not talking about making an item better; I am talking about manufacturing better, i.e. cheaper with a better profit margin. Do you think most companies care if they produce a sub par item, as long as their profit rises, they don't care.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I didn't say China is a shinning star, maybe you need to read back. Capitalism is a brutally brutal system. It is survival of the fittest. A company, who produces good A in the US, more times or not, can not compete with a different company producing the same good A in China. Hence the one in the US goes under, for they were not the fittest. It is capitalism in its more brutal form, in its finest.

[beam]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

I didn't say China is a shinning star, maybe you need to read back. Capitalism is a brutally brutal system. It is survival of the fittest. A company, who produces good A in the US, more times or not, can not compete with a different company producing the same good A in China. Hence the one in the US goes under, for they were not the fittest. It is capitalism in its more brutal form, in its finest.

CB -- I don't know what your major is, but I really hope it isn't business. If so....PLEASE take a ton of Business Ethics classes!

Capitalism ISN'T inherently evil as you would suggest in your post. In fact, the American form of capitalism was founded on a very firm and accepted moral standard. Capitalism without a moral foundation is how we get sweat shops, insanely wide gaps between the upper and lower class, forced labor, ENRON, etc. The way the Chinese and you are defining capitalism is the "survival of the fittest" but AT ANY COST? In America, the worker is protected, physically, financially, and emotionally. We have OSHA, Minimum Wage, and Harassment Laws. Why don't they have that in China??? Because it's capitalism at it's best????? No, it's capitalism at it's WORST! A dictatorial repulict ruled by COMMUNISTS!!!!

What we see coming out of China is, for the most part, an INFERIOR product, made out of INFERIOR materials, produced by companies who pay their employees INFERIOR wages. But hey, it's cheap, right?

[1stdeadeye]

?

Originally posted by shartley

For the love of God, NOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Collegeboy]

Capitalism in its very basic idea is brutal, I don't see how you can say anything different from that. There are no morals in business, what ideological person told you that.

I am not debating who produces a better product Shartly. I am saying who can produce better. Something which you have failed to realize.

I am debating the topic of this thread, why do we move industry to China.

I said, cheap labor is apart of it, but there is MUCH more to it then that. To say cheap labor is the reason means you are losing site of the forest for the trees in it. (see one can turn your "logic" around)

In the end the 5000 soldiers killed the 50, so the 5000 was obviously better then the 50. No I am not saying that one of the 5000 was better then one of the 50, I am saying 5000 was better then 50.

I own a business too, and that teaches me what about capitalism. That it is a brutal system (but that doesn't make it bad).

Do any of you all know what communism is. Who has read Marx, Engels, or if you want an easy to read version, Lenin (even though he is off, so I would stick to the first two). let me guess you all think that Cuba is communist, or better yet, the USSR was communist. Communism has NEVER existed and never will exist. Many are economies in a transformation stage as described in Marx and Engels wither away of the government idea. But NONE have ever gotten to Communism.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Capitalism in its very basic idea is brutal, I don't see how you can say anything different from that. There are no morals in business, what ideological person told you that.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I am not debating who produces a better product Shartly. I am saying who can produce better. Something which you have failed to realize.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I am debating the topic of this thread, why do we move industry to China.

I said, cheap labor is apart of it, but there is MUCH more to it then that. To say cheap labor is the reason means you are losing site of the forest for the trees in it. (see one can turn your "logic" around)

Originally posted by Collegeboy
In the end the 5000 soldiers killed the 50, so the 5000 was obviously better then the 50. No I am not saying that one of the 5000 was better then one of the 50, I am saying 5000 was better then 50.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I own a business too, and that teaches me what about capitalism. That it is a brutal system (but that doesn't make it bad).

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Do any of you all know what communism is. Who has read Marx, Engels, or if you want an easy to read version, Lenin (even though he is off, so I would stick to the first two). let me guess you all think that Cuba is communist, or better yet, the USSR was communist. Communism has NEVER existed and never will exist. Many are economies in a transformation stage as described in Marx and Engels wither away of the government idea. But NONE have ever gotten to Communism.

[Collegeboy]

You have no idea of what communism is, half the world has no idea. I don't even know why I expected you to understand it, I guess I thought too much of you. Most people in the US thinks the US is a democracy, but as our own governmental records show we are a republic. But I guess we are a democracy for that is what most people think. Most people in the early part of the last century thought black people were inferior to white people, so i guess they was correct. I mean by your definition they must be, for the majority can never be wrong. Oh course the idea of what is communism and what is not comes from a book, it is called THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, or ON THE STATE.

I haven't changed my idea of better since the beginnings of this thread, maybe you need to take some comprehension course or what. I have always talked about who can produce better, I could careless who produces a better product, as long as the profit margin rises, it doesn't matter. Do you think Kingman cares that they produce inferior guns compared to AG, no, all they have to do is look at the bottom line.

Business has no morals, and this is coming from the most morally bounded person probably on this board (not knowing anyone, I am taking a guess, but if anyone beats me, i would truly like to meet them)

In my painting business, the whole idea of me making money, is to deprive someone else of that money, to deprive them of a meal, to deprive them of feeding their family. If business was a moral job I would only take enough jobs to support me and let the rest go to others. But we all know that is not the case.

[beam]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Business has no morals, and this is coming from the most morally bounded person probably on this board (not knowing anyone, I am taking a guess, but if anyone beats me, i would truly like to meet them)

In my painting business, the whole idea of me making money, is to deprive someone else of that money, to deprive them of a meal, to deprive them of feeding their family. If I had business was a moral job I would only take enough jobs to support me and let the rest go to others. But we all know that is not the case.

What planet are you from CB? In one sentence you say that you are the most morally bound person on this board, and in the next, you say that your business is all about depriving someone else's family of a meal. HUH? What about offering a great product or service? What about customer relationships? What about workplace environment and employee well being? Making an honest living?

You make running a business sound almost wicked, malicious, or diabolical! Depriving someone of feeding their family? Huh? Since when did that enter the standard business model? I can just see it now at the mid year forcasting meeting: "Ok folks, in our business strategy this year we are going to shift our focus. We want to starve the competition and their families. Forget about product, service, and sales. We want our competitor's innocent families to SUFFER! AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHH!"

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
You have no idea of what communism is, half the world has no idea. I don't even know why I expected you to understand it, I guess I thought too much of you. Most people in the US thinks the US is a democracy, put as our own governmental records show we are a republic. But I guess we are a democracy for that is what most people think. Most people in the early part of the last century thought black people were inferior to white people, so i guess they was correct. I mean by your definition they must be, for the majority can never be wrong. Oh course the idea of what is communism and what is not comes from a a book, it is called THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, or ON THE STATE.

I haven't changed my idea of better since the beginnings of this thread, maybe you need to take some comprehension course or what. I have always talked about who can produce better, I could careless who produces a better product, as long as the profit margin rises, it doesn't matter. Do you think Kingman cares that they produce inferior guns compared to AG, no, all they have to do is look at the bottom line.

Business has no morals, and this is coming from the most morally bounded person probably on this board (not knowing anyone, I am taking a guess, but if anyone beats me, i would truly like to meet them)

In my painting business, the whole idea of me making money, is to deprive someone else of that money, to deprive them of a meal, to deprive them of feeding their family. If I had business was a moral job I would only take enough jobs to support me and let the rest go to others. But we all know that is not the case.